[lac-discuss-en] [lac-discuss-es] CIP-LAC, ERA Re: CIP - LAC Solicitud de Retroalimentación
alberto at soto.net.ar
alberto at soto.net.ar
Mon Jun 3 14:22:00 UTC 2024
[[-- Translated text (es -> en) --]]
Sergio, in order not to waste time looking for other things, I am going to transcribe this email dated 04/26/2024.
“Sergio, I must agree with Claire. You never explained your management even though we requested it.
You insulted me publicly, personally and loudly at an ICANN meeting without any justification.
I remember asking for explanations about:
- Having passed the votes to secret ballots as soon as you took office and without consulting anyone. Vanda and I asked for them to be public and received no response. You are talking about a vote in ALAC and it is public, otherwise you would not have found out.
- You made decisions on LACRALO projects to budget and did not consult LACRALO.
- Even today I am asking about those projects from last year and I am not receiving an answer.
- With Humberto you used two CROP places to go to Mexico and we never found out. I saw it when I saw the places that were occupied. I asked and no one answered
- The Board of Directors has made decisions without consulting the RALO as appropriate.
- There are several more, but I don't want to go into details.
I think I also reported a long time ago that several ALAC Members were not attending ALAC meetings, and also not attending LACRALO meetings, and nothing was done. One of them did not reach 30% presence and another did not reach 50%.
Now I see that people who never participated in LACRALO meetings or working groups appear, with your same speech, as if this demand for this vote was led by someone.
I think both Claire and Lilian far surpass many of those who are attacking them, in every way. Will, participation, work and above all they are good and honest people.”
Regarding LACRALO's annual requirements to Finance, it has been many years since we became aware that it has been requested. It is not only from this management, but from previous ones.
Greetings
Alberto Soto
From: Sergio Salinas Porto<presidencia at internauta.org.ar>
Sent on: Monday, June 3, 2024 11:08
To: alberto at soto.net.ar
CC: Carlos Dionisio Aguirre<carlosaguirre62 at hotmail.com> ; Harold Arcos<harold.arcos at gmail.com> ; Vanda Scartezini<vanda at scartezini.org> ; LACRALO<lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-es] CIP-LAC, ERA Re: CIP - LAC Request for Feedback
Alberto, can you give a detail of those things that were theoretically discussed in the governance group and that did not happen in the region?
For some time now I have been reading unfounded accusations (except for the basis of putting the region under tension over non-existent issues) and they really bother not only me but also those of us who volunteer our time to work for the region in the group of governance and others in which it is clear that you do not participate.
When you sow doubts about the functioning of a group, you are not doing it about a person, who could have responsibility for the direction of the group, but rather about all of us who participate, coloring with opacity something that is extremely transparent, that there is a recorded record of the meetings and that so far everything produced has been sent to the region for discussion, indexing, removal and approval or disapproval.
I am very anxiously awaiting that list so we can discuss the details of these issues and, if possible, apologize for the case.
Sergio Salinas Porto
Internet President Argentina -<https://atlarge.icann.org/ralos/lacralo> LACRALO/ICANN
<http://www.internauta.org.ar/> Argentine Association of Internet Users/<http://www.fetia.org.ar/> FeTIA
FUILAC-<https://fuilac.org> LAC Internet Users Federation
Facebook:<http://www.facebook.com/salinasporto> salinasporto
twitter:<http://twitter.com/sergiosalinas> sergiosalinas
Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819
"I wish we could be disobedient, every time we receive orders that humiliate our
conscience or violate our common sense" Eduardo Galeano
On Mon, June 3, 2024 at 10:48, <alberto at soto.net.ar <mailto:alberto at soto.net.ar>> wrote:
Okay, but what the governance group and the board discuss must be put to the consideration of the RALO, with sufficient time for analysis. There were already many things that did not go through the RALO.
Greetings
Alberto Soto
From: lac-discuss-es <<mailto:lac-discuss-es-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> In the name of Carlos Dionisio Aguirre
Sent on: Monday, June 3, 2024 10:22
To: Harold Arcos <<mailto:harold.arcos at gmail.com> harold.arcos at gmail.com>; Vanda Scartezini <<mailto:vanda at scartezini.org> vanda at scartezini.org>
CC: LACRALO <<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-es] CIP-LAC, ERA Re: CIP - LAC Request for Feedback
Hello everyone,
I have seen and analyzed the exchange of emails on this matter and I appreciate your participation and contributions, since being delegates of the region At the CIP CCG, we cannot speak for ourselves or what we particularly think or think about any of the topics that are discussed there.
Until now Our participation in the group was symbolic and due to the lack of feedback from the region, your contributions will be transferred to the consideration of the CIP from now on, however I understand and also believe Christelle that these comments that you make should be systematized and agreed/consensual among the members of the governance group or board of directors of the region, in order to have a homogeneous position or one that the region maintains, since in this intersection of communications there are positions that are not entirely coincident.
Carlos Dionisio Aguirre
_____
From: lac-discuss-es <<mailto:lac-discuss-es-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Harold Arcos <<mailto:harold.arcos at gmail.com> harold.arcos at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2024 7:47 PM
To: Vanda Scartezini <<mailto:vanda at scartezini.org> vanda at scartezini.org>
Cc: LACRALO <<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-es] CIP-LAC, ERA Re: CIP - LAC Request for Feedback
Thank you, Vanda, for the contribution on the writing.
In fact, the writing focuses on highlighting and asking how the so/ac constitution can internally render even its substructures.
Then the general discussion about the concept of alac and at large is generated. Atlarge we are the ralos plus the Alac? It would be an interesting approach that places each ralo in the position of semi-autonomy that it has.
While on the other hand, Alan Greenberg's comment referred to a concept where Ralos should supposedly be accountable to Alac. Obviously that would be questionable because Alac would be assuming us as its substructures while reality dictates that from each continent we send members to participate in Alac and we are not subordinated from the top down, but our participation is bottom-up. I would also add that finally we have a Memorandum of Understanding with ICANN, not with Alac. That could help to locate more panorama.
This is being discussed recently on our cip delegate list. We will continue updating you 👍🏼
Greetings Vanda
harold
Sent through my H device.
Sorry for the typos and brevity
Sun., June 2 2024 15:23, Vanda Scartezini <vanda at scartezini.org <mailto:vanda at scartezini.org>> wrote:
Hello, in principle 4 of the retelling of accounts, I agree with maintaining the principles from the bottom up and not as I think. I have suggested Alan that the Ralos lend accounts to ALAC. For me, we go to the rest of the board - to participate in discussions if elected - but my position is to suggest a wording in this sense
Vanda Scartezini
Sent from my iPhone
Sorry for typos
On 1 Jun 2024, at 16:35, Sergio Salinas Porto via lac-discuss-es <<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:
Thank you Harold, for putting this on the list, we are already working in the Goberbaza Group on this topic as requested by the region in our last monthly meeting.
I make some contributions to the discussions that are taking place around the CIP, so that our representatives can go with something in their hands, both on 06/03/2024 and 06/05/2024.
I think it is very important that our representatives can represent our voice and not only raise their voice alone, for them all of us have to propose to give contributions so that they can demonstrate knowing that they are carrying the collective voice of the region.
There has been discussion within the CIP about the wording in which we name or propose questions to the different principles raised (five principles).
In these discussions it is noted that the 5 principles begin with SO/Ac/Nomcom... and it is seen that, for example, in principle number 4, which talks about constituent groups, that Nomcom (one of the named groups) does not have a constituent group, since the others do have them, then I suggest that, in order not to modify the wording of all the principles, the position of APRALO, raised by Justine Chew, can be followed, where they say that some clarification should be made about a particular group (such as example ALAC), is done by means of a footnote.
Going fully into principle number 4, which in the meeting we had on Thursday in the LACRALO Governance Group together with our representative in the CIP Carlos Aguirre, emphasized this point and which in my opinion is the point that It seems that more conversations are being held.
This point is about accountability, I understand that we should join the position provided by AFRALO, expressed by its representative Tijani Ben Jemaa, in which he values the primary constitution of ICANN, stating that we are within a multistakeholder model with a process of Button Up policy construction and that ALAC is made up of 2/3 parts by representatives of their respective RALOS, therefore ALAC should be accountable to the RALOS, as they are accountable to their ALSs and individual members that make up the regional ecosystem . Any other position on ALAC accountability, in my opinion, would break the Buttom Up principle and give wrong signals, which would allow, among other things, the horror that happened recently with the issue of travel policies.
A big hug to everyone
Sergio Salinas Porto
Internet President Argentina -<https://atlarge.icann.org/ralos/lacralo> LACRALO/ICANN
<http://www.internauta.org.ar/> Argentine Association of Internet Users/<http://www.fetia.org.ar/> FeTIA
FUILAC-<https://fuilac.org/> LAC Internet Users Federation
Facebook:<http://www.facebook.com/salinasporto> salinasporto
twitter:<http://twitter.com/sergiosalinas> sergiosalinas
Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819
"I wish we could be disobedient, every time we receive orders that humiliate our
conscience or violate our common sense" Eduardo Galeano
On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 1:08 p.m., Harold Arcos ( <harold.arcos at gmail.com <mailto:harold.arcos at gmail.com>>) wrote:
Good morning region,,
I'm stopping by to remind you that we have a Consultation in Progress. I once again share the link to the document with the 5 principles proposed by the general CIP group (Continuous Improvement Program, for its acronym in English):
In the link we share, you can see the context of this creation, the 5 Principles and the question: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uQf54kae3tI8gKP4agOwJFzGMYNJb4StoVCNn4rmASY/edit?usp=sharing
Please share your Answer by leaving a Comment in the Doc or by sending it to this Regional Mailing List thread.
Reviewing the language used in Principle #4 is an important point. Please focus on Principle #4 that has generated questions from colleagues in LAC and other regions such as:
Does the ALAC structure include Ralos? AtLarge are we the Ralos + Alac without substructure relationship?
As one of the important issues for the regions, I am following and accompanying the work of our delegates Carlos Dionisio and Christelle and since the end of May I have been replacing Christelle because she is unable to address this issue for a while.
Next Wednesday, June 5, we will be delivering to the global CIP group the compilation of opinions that Lacralo has left in the Doc to later discuss in our session during the Icann80 meeting in Kigali.
Hug
Harold Arcos
President LACRALO - Icann
+593 962 792 117
The invitation remains for you to share your opinions and questions that arise about each Principle.
I appreciate the comments and notes of those who have already left their contributions.
On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:22 PM Harold Arcos <<mailto:harold.arcos at gmail.com> harold.arcos at gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you very much Alejandro for sharing your comments and thoughts through this channel.
In fact, these characteristic phrases are an example of an ideal state and it is our duty at this moment to break them down and find a way to adjust them to a tangible reality.
The challenge that is being presented to us in the cip is precisely to try to bring this to earth and not remain just mere illusions.
We can run the risk of not generating new criteria and allowing ourselves to be carried away by the tide of concepts that have been useless in the past.
We are in contact.
Greetings
harold
Sent through my H device.
Sorry for the typos and brevity
Tue, Apr 30 2024 15:20, Alejandro Pisanty <apisanty at gmail.com <mailto:apisanty at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Harold,
The 5 principles stated represent an ideal state that should prevail in some future, is this correct? In that sense, and thinking about the ridiculously long time horizon of the "Holistic Review", which points to 2030, any statement of good intentions like this is a good thing. It is what is known in English as "motherhood and apple pie", something so generally accepted as good that no one can dare to object to it, and at the same time, so general that it is completely devoid of meaning.
Point 1 refers to the entity (SO, AC, etc.) "doing what it should do" (and has already been objected to in comments to the document). It should be more specific for each entity; for example, for LACRALO and other RALOs, "it produces policy development recommendations that are technically informed, applicable in the short term, robust in the long term, and the product of broad, participatory, multisectoral deliberation that reflects diversity, is well documented and reasoned." , transparent and with the representativeness and conflicts of interest of the parties fully clarified".
THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN HERE. I do believe that this is a good principle, and that the community that supports it should be aware of how far and through what steps they are from achieving it; for example, the dissolution of the entity and its full refoundation with organizations capable of complying with the principle.
The same analysis can be extended to at least the first 4 principles, and the contributions of the different entities in their contribution to 5.
Alejandro Pisanty
On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 10:59 AM Harold Arcos <<mailto:harold.arcos at gmail.com> harold.arcos at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Region,
We have an open consultation in progress to provide feedback on the 5 Principles created by the Continuous Improvement Process (CIP) group that will serve as a Framework for future Holistic Review work, as already reported by our delegates Carlos Aguirre and Christelle Vaval in past monthly meetings.
In the link we share, you can see the context of this creation, the 5 Principles and the question: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uQf54kae3tI8gKP4agOwJFzGMYNJb4StoVCNn4rmASY/edit?usp=sharing
Please share your Response by leaving a Comment in the Doc or by sending it to the Regional Mailing List, starting with the Subject: CIP-LAC. . .
The question to answer is at the end of Table ES-EN:
Question for Lacralo's consideration:
Are you comfortable with the five principles developed by the CIP-CCG (derived from Article 4.4 of the ICANN Bylaws) to serve as a common basis across all structures?
We will be compiling the answers at 22UTC each day starting today;
Thanks in advance for the contributions
Brotherly greeting
harold
________________________________
lac-discuss-es mailing list
<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
<http://www.lacralo.org/> http://www.lacralo.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy> https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos> https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
Facultad de Química UNAM
Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
+525541444475
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com <http://pisanty.blogspot.com/>
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org <http://www.isoc.org/>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-es mailing list
<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
<http://www.lacralo.org/> http://www.lacralo.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy> https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos> https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-es mailing list
<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
<http://www.lacralo.org/> http://www.lacralo.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy> https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos> https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-es mailing list
<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
<http://www.lacralo.org/> http://www.lacralo.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy> https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos> https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-es mailing list
<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
<http://www.lacralo.org/> http://www.lacralo.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy> https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos> https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-es mailing list
<mailto:lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org> lac-discuss-es at atlarge-lists.icann.org
<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
<http://www.lacralo.org> http://www.lacralo.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy> https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos> https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
More information about the lac-discuss-en
mailing list