[ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting alternatives
Alan Greenberg
alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
Fri Jun 17 12:32:45 UTC 2016
I did choose to get a few hours sleep last night,
and this thread is what I find!!!!!!!!!
I am very short of time so cannot reply to all of
the issue raised, but I will go back, because some of them are important.
Just a few notes:
1. We preferably do have to come to closure on
this in Helsinki, and I believe that we will. But
if we don't, the world will not collapse.
2. There are a lot of issues at play here.
"fairness" is one, and picking the "best"
candidate is another. BOTH terms are subjective
and people have different views on what they mean
in a particular case. We will probably not all
agree, but that is why we have 15 people on the
ALAC and we are MULTI-stakeholder.
4. The volume of e-mail on this subject, and that
of the GAC Liaison is impressive. Let's keep it up on OTHER topics as well.
3. I will get back later in my day to summarize where we are on all issues.
Alan
At 17/06/2016 08:02 AM, Seun Ojedeji wrote:
>Hello Kaili,
>
>It is not about the ALT vs randomisation. The
>act of randomisation at that point is in
>fairness to the contestants. We the electorate
>know that either of them is fine, giving it over
>to the ALT to choose (don't forget that ALT is
>part of those who already voted) gives whoever
>lost some reason to feel the winner has personal attachment to the ALT.
>
>Now I will still be fine if we indeed leave it
>to the ALT to "toss the coin" as that would
>still imply randomisation. What we should not be
>doing at that point is having the ALT vote on
>whom among the contestant is preferred.
>
>Regards
>
>Sent from my LG G4
>Kindly excuse brevity and typos
>On 17 Jun 2016 12:35 p.m., "Kan Kaili"
><<mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>kankaili at gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi, Suen,
>
>The issue is about comparing ALT's selection
>capability vs. ranmdomness. Are you saying that
>ALT's selection would be even worse than randomness?
>
>If that is the case, let's close our eyes and
>let ALT to toss the coin. If that is not the
>case, let's again close our eyes and let ALT make the decision as well.
>
>Best,
>Kaili
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>Seun Ojedeji
>To: <mailto:h.raiche at internode.on.net>Holly Raiche
>Cc: <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>Kaili Kan ;
><mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>Alan Greenberg
>; <mailto:alac at atlarge-lists.icann.org>ALAC
>Working List ; <mailto:leonfelipe at sanchez.mx>León Felipe Sánchez AmbÃa
>Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 7:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting alternatives
>
>Hello Holly,
>
>This is not about my level of trust for the ALT,
>all the electorates are one way or the other put
>in their positions by their regions and they are
>equally trustworthy so i would have still said
>the same thing if we delegated the role to ALAC or any other leadership.
>
>My point is that when/if we get to that bridge
>where 2 or more already tied contestants returns
>tied again, it implies both of them are
>qualified to be elected and it should not
>require any other individual(s) to deliberate on
>which one of them to choose. The element of luck
>should just play its magic at that point; we
>should all just close our eyes and select one of
>them which is the act of selection by randomization.
>
>Regards
>
>On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Holly Raiche
><<mailto:h.raiche at internode.on.net>h.raiche at internode.on.net> wrote:
>Hi Seun
>
>I really worry about your statement that
>randomness is preferable to the ALTâs role -
>an unnecessary human perspective.
>
>ALT members are there because their regions have
>put them there. But when it comes to the
>crunch, they are not to be trusted! Really!
>
>I agree, that we are now talking about a very
>unlikely scenario which, hopefully, will not
>happen. That said, Iâd really prefer to think
>that human consideration is preferable. (and
>the normal practice in all Boards is that when a
>Board member is too closely tied to a particular
>outcome, they excuse themselves from
>participating in making the relevant decision(s).
>
>Holly
>
>
>On 17 Jun 2016, at 6:06 pm, Seun Ojedeji
><<mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>seun.ojedeji at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hello Kaili,
>>
>>I think we need to be clear here, going the
>>random option is last resort and we all may
>>actually never experience it. Three steps would
>>have happened before randomly doing stuff:
>>
>>1. There would have been a contested position
>>2. Votes would have been casted and resulted to a tie
>>3. Another set of votes would have been casted
>>among the contestants in 2 above.
>>
>>Once the above still result to a tie, I think
>>it is just fair to go to randomisation that is
>>verifiable. At that point there would be no
>>human subjectivity as it is assumed that both
>>tied contestants are qualified to be elected.
>>Seeding that role to ALT brings in unnecessary
>>human perspective/interference which won't be necessary at that point.
>>
>>Secondly, the ALT members are part of the
>>electorates and there may even be instances
>>where one of them is a contestant so delegating
>>a section of the electorate the responsibility
>>to determine the elected would not be a fair election process.
>>
>>Regards
>>Sent from my LG G4
>>Kindly excuse brevity and typos
>>On 17 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m., "Kan Kaili"
>><<mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>kankaili at gmail.com> wrote:
>>Hi, Leon,
>>
>>I agree with you that a random selection
>>process is the best in accordance to "fairness".
>>
>>However, including this random factor into the
>>selection process implies that we at ALAC
>>rather trust randomness instead of our own
>>elected ALT. This also implies that we regard
>>personal fairness to be more important than the
>>effectiveness of selecting our Board Member. Are those what we really want?
>>
>>As I understand, the Board Member is to
>>represent ALAC, all the RALOs and ALSs, and in
>>turn all the end-users to the Board. This is a
>>serious position with enormous
>>responsibility. I am not sure about what the
>>end-users will think, but at least I will not
>>feel comfortable having a randomly selected
>>person to represent me. Furthermore, I am not
>>sure if such a selectee would feel confident
>>and be effective at that position either.
>>
>>Sorry to disagree with you on some points.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Kaili
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <mailto:leonfelipe at sanchez.mx>León Felipe Sánchez AmbÃa
>>To: <mailto:h.raiche at internode.on.net>Holly Raiche
>>Cc: <mailto:alac at atlarge-lists.icann.org>ALAC
>>Working List ; <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>Alan Greenberg
>>Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 12:03 PM
>>Subject: Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting alternatives
>>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>My sense is that option 2 is the best in
>>fairness. While I understand the complexities
>>of the rest of the options, I believe letting
>>those candidates tied for last place compete
>>amongst them is the most transparent way to
>>address the challenge. In case they are tied
>>again, then it would be justified to run the
>>verifiable random disqualification process.
>>
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>
>>León
>>
>>>El 16/06/2016, a las 5:18 p.m., Holly Raiche
>>><<mailto:h.raiche at internode.on.net>h.raiche at internode.on.net> escribió:
>>>
>>>I have to agree with Alan (and Kaili) here.
>>>
>>>I donât think Kaili was suggesting that the
>>>ALT take over anything. However, they may be
>>>situations where, for timing reasons, the ALT
>>>may be an appropriate mechanism to reach a decision.
>>>
>>>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to
>>>deal with situations that have been described,
>>>and they must be as open and democratic and
>>>fair as possible. But we must also reserve
>>>the means of solving disputes in ways that do
>>>not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC
>>>members. Iâm sure there will be a solution,
>>>hopefully without absorbing too much more time and effort of all of us
>>>
>>>Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg
>>><<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT
>>>>does not, de facto, have any rights to take
>>>>decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than
>>>>those rights of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to the ALT.
>>>>
>>>>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from
>>>>time to time, delegate actions of the ALAC to
>>>>the ALT. It happens relatively rarely, but
>>>>does on occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight timing requirements.
>>>>
>>>>Alan
>>>>
>>>>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani BEN JEMAA wrote:
>>>>>Dear Kaili,
>>>>>
>>>>>Iââ¬m sorry to disagree with you on everything:
>>>>>The electorate is not constituted by the
>>>>>ALAC members only, but also the RALO
>>>>>leaders, so the ALAC canââ¬t delegate to ALT what is not its sole duty
>>>>>even if we suppose that the ALT is elected
>>>>>democratically by the ALAC members, this
>>>>>doesnât mean that the ALT can be
>>>>>delegated to replace the ALAC. This is
>>>>>exactly the argument given by the
>>>>>authoritarian regimes arguing that since
>>>>>they were elected by their people, they have
>>>>>all the rights to do everything on their
>>>>>behalf because they know better then the
>>>>>people where is their interest. When you are
>>>>>democratically elected, it is a mandate for
>>>>>a limited time to do certain things; it is
>>>>>not an open mandate to replace who elected
>>>>>you outside the mandate you are elected for.
>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>>>>>Executive Director
>>>>>Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI)
>>>>>Phone: <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114>+216 98 330 114
>>>>> +216 52 385 114
>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 15:46, Kan Kaili
>>>>>><<mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>kankaili at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi, Tijani,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The awswer to your question: Basically,
>>>>>>yes. That is, when ALAC faces a tie during
>>>>>>the selection of its Board Director, or
>>>>>>other positions generally in principle, the
>>>>>>ALT will be delegated to make the selection on behalf of ALAC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The justification of this includes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- When there is a tie, all the tied
>>>>>>candidates are equal representations of ALAC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- The ALT is democratically elected with
>>>>>>full representation of all regions,
>>>>>>cultures and, presumably, various interests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- ALT members are elected due to their
>>>>>>experience and contribution to ICANN's
>>>>>>mission, who should also be most capable to
>>>>>>make the best selection among candidates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- As the ALT will be making the selection
>>>>>>on behalf of all of ALAC, the process
>>>>>>should be open to all ALAC voting members
>>>>>>(not beyond). Thus, the selection made by
>>>>>>each ALT member in this process will affect
>>>>>>the support he/she receives during later
>>>>>>elections of the ALT. This will in turn
>>>>>>put a "lid" on any possible blackbox deals
>>>>>>which will be the safeguard for our democratic principle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- We at ALAC are merely representatives of
>>>>>>ALSes, or of the end-users in the world
>>>>>>(maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom
>>>>>>selectees like me). Thus, as they elected
>>>>>>and delegated us to make selections on
>>>>>>their behalf, it would also make sense to
>>>>>>extend the same principle to the ALT in the
>>>>>>case we cannot effectively make a selection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Furthermore, as Alan pointed out, it is
>>>>>>possible, even likely, that tied-candidates
>>>>>>be ALT members themselves, and even the
>>>>>>chairperson him/herself. So be it. I
>>>>>>don't think anywhere in the world's
>>>>>>elections prohibit a person to vote for
>>>>>>him/herself. Based on the above same
>>>>>>arguments, he/she has received enough
>>>>>>support for the position during the
>>>>>>"general" election process, and is thus
>>>>>>well deserved. Thus, he/she moving to the
>>>>>>Board will vacate the ALT position, maybe
>>>>>>even the chairperson position, for new
>>>>>>blood. Also, as he/she gets the position
>>>>>>as desired, I am sure that he/she will work
>>>>>>even harder to contribute to ICANN's mission.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of course, before ALT selects on behalf of
>>>>>>the whole ALAC, how many rounds of
>>>>>>tie-breaking need to take place is up to
>>>>>>debate. As I am not familiar to the
>>>>>>current process, I am sure that, with so
>>>>>>much wisdom in ALAC, a process to bridge
>>>>>>the gap between the current process and the
>>>>>>future one could be designed. However,
>>>>>>again as Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has
>>>>>>proven, especially as the Board Member
>>>>>>selection process has been a "long and
>>>>>>painful" one so far, a certain degree of
>>>>>>"dictatorship" ("democracy-based
>>>>>>dictatorship" to be exact) has to be there as a last resort.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thank you, and thank you all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>>Kaili
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: <mailto:tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>>>>>>>To: <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>Kan Kaili
>>>>>>>Cc: <mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>Seun
>>>>>>>Ojedeji ;
>>>>>>><mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>Alan
>>>>>>>Greenberg ; <mailto:alac at atlarge-lists.icann.org>ALAC Working List
>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting alternatives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dear Kaili,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Do you propose that in the selection of
>>>>>>>the Board Director selected by At-Large,
>>>>>>>when we face a tie, we delegate the ALT to
>>>>>>>decide which one should be dropped????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>>>>>>>Executive Director
>>>>>>>Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI)
>>>>>>>Phone: <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114>+216 98 330 114
>>>>>>> +216 52 385 114
>>>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 12:00, Kan Kaili
>>>>>>>><<mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>kankaili at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I have followed this discussion with
>>>>>>>>interest but also confussion. It seems
>>>>>>>>to me that different options have different pros, cons and possible outcomes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As a matter of fact, this reminds me of
>>>>>>>>Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, basically
>>>>>>>>saying that democracy can only go so far,
>>>>>>>>and may not necessarily lead to a fair
>>>>>>>>outcome acceptable by everybody. In that
>>>>>>>>case, some degree of "dictatorship" is
>>>>>>>>warranted. This is why republics are
>>>>>>>>established, as well as why the
>>>>>>>>presidential race between Bush and Gore
>>>>>>>>was finally decided by the Supreme Court.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thus, in our case, when a tie has
>>>>>>>>appeared, I suggest to delegate ALT to
>>>>>>>>decide who will represent ALAC at the
>>>>>>>>position. After all, the ALT is elected
>>>>>>>>by all of us thru a fully democratic
>>>>>>>>process. Good enough. In the case that
>>>>>>>>even the ALT cannot decide, the
>>>>>>>>chairperson of ALAC will make the final decision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I believe this process is highly
>>>>>>>>executable, and is also fully democratic to its limit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Being the most junior member of ALAC,
>>>>>>>>just expressing some of my thoughts for your consideration.
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ALAC mailing list
>>>><mailto:ALAC at atlarge-lists.icann.org>ALAC at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
>>>>
>>>>At-Large Online:
>>>><http://www.atlarge.icann.org/>http://www.atlarge.icann.org
>>>>ALAC Working Wiki:
>>>><https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)
>>>
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>>>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
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>>
>>
>>
>>----------
>>
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>
>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Seun Ojedeji,
>Federal University Oye-Ekiti
>web: <http://www.fuoye.edu.ng>http://www.fuoye.edu.ng
>Mobile: +2348035233535
>alt email:<http://goog_1872880453>
><mailto:seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng>seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng
>
>Bringing another down does not take you up - think about your action!
>
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