<html>
<body>
I did choose to get a few hours sleep last night, and this thread is what
I find!!!!!!!!!<br><br>
I am very short of time so cannot reply to all of the issue raised, but I
will go back, because some of them are important.<br><br>
Just a few notes:<br><br>
1. We preferably do have to come to closure on this in Helsinki, and I
believe that we will. But if we don't, the world will not
collapse.<br><br>
2. There are a lot of issues at play here. "fairness" is one,
and picking the "best" candidate is another. BOTH terms are
subjective and people have different views on what they mean in a
particular case. We will probably not all agree, but that is why we have
15 people on the ALAC and we are MULTI-stakeholder. <br><br>
4. The volume of e-mail on this subject, and that of the GAC Liaison is
impressive. Let's keep it up on OTHER topics as well.<br><br>
3. I will get back later in my day to summarize where we are on all
issues.<br><br>
Alan<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
At 17/06/2016 08:02 AM, Seun Ojedeji wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hello Kaili,<br><br>
It is not about the ALT vs randomisation. The act of randomisation at
that point is in fairness to the contestants. We the electorate know that
either of them is fine, giving it over to the ALT to choose (don't forget
that ALT is part of those who already voted) gives whoever lost some
reason to feel the winner has personal attachment to the ALT.<br><br>
Now I will still be fine if we indeed leave it to the ALT to "toss
the coin" as that would still imply randomisation. What we should
not be doing at that point is having the ALT vote on whom among the
contestant is preferred.<br><br>
Regards<br><br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<br>
On 17 Jun 2016 12:35 p.m., "Kan Kaili"
<<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd><font size=2>Hi, Suen,<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>The issue is about comparing ALT's selection capability
vs. ranmdomness. Are you saying that ALT's selection would be even
worse than randomness?<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>If that is the case, let's close our eyes and let ALT to
toss the coin. If that is not the case, let's again close our eyes
and let ALT make the decision as well.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Best,<br>
<dd>Kaili<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">Seun Ojedeji</a>
<br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">Holly Raiche</a>
<br>
<dd>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">Kaili Kan</a> ;
<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan Greenberg</a> ;
<a href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working List</a> ;
<a href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx">León Felipe Sánchez Ambía</a>
<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2016 7:28 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting
alternatives<br><br>
<dd>Hello Holly,<br><br>
<dd>This is not about my level of trust for the ALT, all the electorates
are one way or the other put in their positions by their regions and they
are equally trustworthy so i would have still said the same thing if we
delegated the role to ALAC or any other leadership. <br><br>
<dd>My point is that when/if we get to that bridge where 2 or more
already tied contestants returns tied again, it implies both of them are
qualified to be elected and it should not require any other individual(s)
to deliberate on which one of them to choose. The element of luck should
just play its magic at that point; we should all just close our eyes and
select one of them which is the act of selection by
randomization.<br><br>
<dd>Regards<br><br>
<dd>On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Holly Raiche
<<a href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">
h.raiche@internode.on.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd>Hi Seun <br><br>
<dd>I really worry about your statement that randomness is preferable to
the ALT’s role - an unnecessary human perspective.<br><br>
<dd>ALT members are there because their regions have put them
there. But when it comes to the crunch, they are not to be
trusted! Really!<br><br>
<dd>I agree, that we are now talking about a very unlikely scenario
which, hopefully, will not happen. That said, I’d really prefer
to think that human consideration is preferable. (and the normal
practice in all Boards is that when a Board member is too closely tied to
a particular outcome, they excuse themselves from participating in making
the relevant decision(s).<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
<dd>Holly<br>
</font><br><br>
<dd>On 17 Jun 2016, at 6:06 pm, Seun Ojedeji
<<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>
> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>Hello Kaili,<br><br>
<dd>I think we need to be clear here, going the random option is last
resort and we all may actually never experience it. Three steps would
have happened before randomly doing stuff:<br><br>
<dd>1. There would have been a contested position<br>
<dd>2. Votes would have been casted and resulted to a tie<br>
<dd>3. Another set of votes would have been casted among the contestants
in 2 above.<br><br>
<dd>Once the above still result to a tie, I think it is just fair to go
to randomisation that is verifiable. At that point there would be no
human subjectivity as it is assumed that both tied contestants are
qualified to be elected. Seeding that role to ALT brings in unnecessary
human perspective/interference which won't be necessary at that point.
<br><br>
<dd>Secondly, the ALT members are part of the electorates and there may
even be instances where one of them is a contestant so delegating a
section of the electorate the responsibility to determine the elected
would not be a fair election process.<br><br>
<dd>Regards<br>
<dd>Sent from my LG G4<br>
<dd>Kindly excuse brevity and typos<br>
<dd>On 17 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m., "Kan Kaili"
<<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd><font size=2>Hi, Leon,<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>I agree with you that a random selection process is the
best in accordance to "fairness".<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>However, including this random factor into the selection
process implies that we at ALAC rather trust randomness instead of our
own elected ALT. This also implies that we regard personal fairness
to be more important than the effectiveness of selecting our Board
Member. Are those what we really want?<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>As I understand, the Board Member is to represent ALAC,
all the RALOs and ALSs, and in turn all the end-users to the Board.
This is a serious position with enormous responsibility. I am not
sure about what the end-users will think, but at least I will not feel
comfortable having a randomly selected person to represent me.
Furthermore, I am not sure if such a selectee would feel confident and be
effective at that position either.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Sorry to disagree with you on some points.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Best regards,<br>
<dd>Kaili<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx">León Felipe
Sánchez Ambía</a> <br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">Holly Raiche</a>
<br>
<dd>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working
List</a> ; <a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan Greenberg</a>
<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2016 12:03 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting
alternatives<br><br>
<dd>Hello all, <br><br>
<dd>My sense is that option 2 is the best in fairness. While I understand
the complexities of the rest of the options, I believe letting those
candidates tied for last place compete amongst them is the most
transparent way to address the challenge. In case they are tied again,
then it would be justified to run the verifiable random disqualification
process.<br><br>
<br>
<dd>Best regards,<br><br>
<br>
<dd>León<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>El 16/06/2016, a las 5:18 p.m., Holly Raiche
<<a href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">
h.raiche@internode.on.net</a>> escribió:<br><br>
<dd>I have to agree with Alan (and Kaili) here. <br><br>
<dd>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over
anything. However, they may be situations where, for timing
reasons, the ALT may be an appropriate mechanism to reach a
decision.<br><br>
<dd>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with situations
that have been described, and they must be as open and democratic and
fair as possible. But we must also reserve the means of solving
disputes in ways that do not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC
members. I”m sure there will be a solution, hopefully without
absorbing too much more time and effort of all of us<br><br>
<dd>Holly<br><br>
<br>
<dd>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg
<<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>
> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de facto, have
any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than those
rights of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to the
ALT.<br><br>
<dd>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time to time, delegate
actions of the ALAC to the ALT. It happens relatively rarely, but does on
occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight timing
requirements.<br><br>
<dd>Alan<br><br>
<dd>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani BEN JEMAA wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd><font color="#002E7A">Dear Kaili,</font><br>
<font color="#002E7A"><br>
<dd>Iâ€m sorry to disagree with you on everything: </font>
<dd><font color="#002E7A">The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC
members only, but also the RALO leaders, so the ALAC canâ€t delegate
to ALT what is not its sole duty
<dd>even if we suppose that the ALT is elected democratically by the ALAC
members, this doesnât mean that the ALT can be delegated to replace
the ALAC. This is exactly the argument given by the authoritarian regimes
arguing that since they were elected by their people, they have all the
rights to do everything on their behalf because they know better then the
people where is their interest. When you are democratically elected, it
is a mandate for a limited time to do certain things; it is not an open
mandate to replace who elected you outside the mandate you are elected
for. </font><br>
<dd>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<dd>Tijani BEN JEMAA<br>
</b>
<dd>Executive Director<br>
<dd>Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI</b>)<br>
<dd>Phone: <a href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114">+216 98 330 114</a><br>
<dd> +216 52 385
114<br>
<dd>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 15:46, Kan Kaili
<<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br><br>
<dd><font size=2>Hi, Tijani,<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>The awswer to your question: Basically, yes. That
is, when ALAC faces a tie during the selection of its Board Director, or
other positions generally in principle, the ALT will be delegated to make
the selection on behalf of ALAC.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>The justification of this includes:<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>- When there is a tie, all the tied candidates are equal
representations of ALAC.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>- The ALT is democratically elected with full
representation of all regions, cultures and, presumably, various
interests.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>- ALT members are elected due to their experience and
contribution to ICANN's mission, who should also be most capable to make
the best selection among candidates.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>- As the ALT will be making the selection on behalf of
all of ALAC, the process should be open to all ALAC voting members (not
beyond). Thus, the selection made by each ALT member in this
process will affect the support he/she receives during later elections of
the ALT. This will in turn put a "lid" on any possible
blackbox deals which will be the safeguard for our democratic
principle.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>- We at ALAC are merely representatives of ALSes, or of
the end-users in the world (maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom
selectees like me). Thus, as they elected and delegated us to make
selections on their behalf, it would also make sense to extend the same
principle to the ALT in the case we cannot effectively make a
selection.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Furthermore, as Alan pointed out, it is possible, even
likely, that tied-candidates be ALT members themselves, and even the
chairperson him/herself. So be it. I don't think anywhere in
the world's elections prohibit a person to vote for him/herself.
Based on the above same arguments, he/she has received enough support for
the position during the "general" election process, and is thus
well deserved. Thus, he/she moving to the Board will vacate the ALT
position, maybe even the chairperson position, for new blood. Also,
as he/she gets the position as desired, I am sure that he/she will work
even harder to contribute to ICANN's mission.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Of course, before ALT selects on behalf of the whole
ALAC, how many rounds of tie-breaking need to take place is up to
debate. As I am not familiar to the current process, I am sure
that, with so much wisdom in ALAC, a process to bridge the gap between
the current process and the future one could be designed. However,
again as Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has proven, especially as the Board
Member selection process has been a "long and painful" one so
far, a certain degree of "dictatorship" ("democracy-based
dictatorship" to be exact) has to be there as a last resort.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Thank you, and thank you all.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Best regards,<br>
<dd>Kaili<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn">Tijani BEN
JEMAA</a><br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">Kan Kaili</a><br>
<dd>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">Seun Ojedeji</a> ;
<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan Greenberg</a> ;
<a href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working List</a><br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting
alternatives<br><br>
<dd><font color="#002E7A">Dear Kaili,</font><br>
<font color="#002E7A"><br>
<dd>Do you propose that in the selection of the Board Director selected
by At-Large, when we face a tie, we delegate the ALT to decide which one
should be dropped????<br>
</font><br><br>
<dd>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<dd>Tijani BEN JEMAA<br>
</b>
<dd>Executive Director<br>
<dd>Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI</b>)<br>
<dd>Phone: <a href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114">+216 98 330 114</a><br>
<dd> +216 52 385
114<br>
<dd>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 12:00, Kan Kaili
<<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br><br>
<dd><font size=2>Hi,<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>I have followed this discussion with interest but also
confussion. It seems to me that different options have different
pros, cons and possible outcomes.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>As a matter of fact, this reminds me of Arrow's
Impossibility Theorem, basically saying that democracy can only go so
far, and may not necessarily lead to a fair outcome acceptable by
everybody. In that case, some degree of "dictatorship" is
warranted. This is why republics are established, as well as why
the presidential race between Bush and Gore was finally decided by the
Supreme Court.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Thus, in our case, when a tie has appeared, I suggest to
delegate ALT to decide who will represent ALAC at the position.
After all, the ALT is elected by all of us thru a fully democratic
process. Good enough. In the case that even the ALT cannot
decide, the chairperson of ALAC will make the final decision.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>I believe this process is highly executable, and is also
fully democratic to its limit.<br>
</font>
<dd> <br>
<dd><font size=2>Being the most junior member of ALAC, just expressing
some of my thoughts for your
consideration.</font></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<dd>_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>ALAC mailing list<br>
<dd><a href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org">
ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br>
<dd>
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<dd>ALAC Working Wiki:
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</blockquote><br><br>
<hr>
<br>
<dd>_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>ALAC mailing list<br>
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</dl><br>
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</blockquote>
</dl><br>
</dl><br><br>
<br>
<dd>-- <br>
<dd>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<dl>
<dd><font color="#888888">Seun Ojedeji,<br>
<dd>Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br>
<dd>web:
<a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<dd>Mobile: <a href="??">+2348035233535</a><br>
<dd>alt email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453">
</a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng">
seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></i><br><br>
<dl>
<dd>Bringing another down does not take you up - think about your
action!<br>
</font><br>
</dl>
</dl><br>
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