[ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting alternatives

Thu Jun 16 15:48:00 UTC 2016

To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does 
not, de facto, have any rights to take decisions 
on behalf of the ALAC other than those rights of 
the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to the ALT.

However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time 
to time, delegate actions of the ALAC to the ALT. 
It happens relatively rarely, but does on 
occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight timing requirements.

Alan

At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani BEN JEMAA wrote:
>Dear Kaili,
>
>Iâ€™m sorry to disagree with you on everything:
>    * The electorate is not constituted by the 
> ALAC members only, but also the RALO leaders, 
> so the ALAC canâ€™t delegate to ALT what is not its sole duty
>    * even if we suppose that the ALT is elected 
> democratically by the ALAC members, this 
> doesnâ€™t mean that the ALT can be delegated to 
> replace the ALAC. This is exactly the argument 
> given by the authoritarian regimes arguing that 
> since they were elected by their people, they 
> have all the rights to do everything on their 
> behalf because they know better then the people 
> where is their interest. When you are 
> democratically elected, it is a mandate for a 
> limited time to do certain things; it is not an 
> open mandate to replace who elected you outside 
> the mandate you are elected for.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>Executive Director
>Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI)
>Phone: +216 98 330 114
>           +216 52 385 114
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>>Le 16 juin 2016 Ã  15:46, Kan Kaili 
>><<mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>kankaili at gmail.com> a Ã©crit :
>>
>>Hi, Tijani,
>>
>>The awswer to your question: Basically, 
>>yes.  That is, when ALAC faces a tie during the 
>>selection of its Board Director, or other 
>>positions generally in principle, the ALT will 
>>be delegated to make the selection on behalf of ALAC.
>>
>>The justification of this includes:
>>
>>- When there is a tie, all the tied candidates 
>>are equal representations of ALAC.
>>
>>- The ALT is democratically elected with full 
>>representation of all regions, cultures and, presumably, various interests.
>>
>>- ALT members are elected due to their 
>>experience and contribution to ICANN's mission, 
>>who should also be most capable to make the best selection among candidates.
>>
>>- As the ALT will be making the selection on 
>>behalf of all of ALAC, the process should be 
>>open to all ALAC voting members (not 
>>beyond).  Thus, the selection made by each ALT 
>>member in this process will affect the support 
>>he/she receives during later elections of the 
>>ALT.  This will in turn put a "lid" on any 
>>possible blackbox deals which will be the 
>>safeguard for our democratic principle.
>>
>>- We at ALAC are merely representatives of 
>>ALSes, or of the end-users in the world (maybe 
>>to a lesser extent regarding NomCom selectees 
>>like me).  Thus, as they elected and delegated 
>>us to make selections on their behalf, it would 
>>also make sense to extend the same principle to 
>>the ALT in the case we cannot effectively make a selection.
>>
>>Furthermore, as Alan pointed out, it is 
>>possible, even likely, that tied-candidates be 
>>ALT members themselves, and even the 
>>chairperson him/herself.  So be it.  I don't 
>>think anywhere in the world's elections 
>>prohibit a person to vote for 
>>him/herself.  Based on the above same 
>>arguments, he/she has received enough support 
>>for the position during the "general" election 
>>process, and is thus well deserved.  Thus, 
>>he/she moving to the Board will vacate the ALT 
>>position, maybe even the chairperson position, 
>>for new blood.  Also, as he/she gets the 
>>position as desired, I am sure that he/she will 
>>work even harder to contribute to ICANN's mission.
>>
>>Of course, before ALT selects on behalf of the 
>>whole ALAC, how many rounds of tie-breaking 
>>need to take place is up to debate.  As I am 
>>not familiar to the current process, I am sure 
>>that, with so much wisdom in ALAC, a process to 
>>bridge the gap between the current process and 
>>the future one could be designed.  However, 
>>again as Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has 
>>proven, especially as the Board Member 
>>selection process has been a "long and painful" 
>>one so far, a certain degree of "dictatorship" 
>>("democracy-based dictatorship" to be exact) has to be there as a last resort.
>>
>>Thank you, and thank you all.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Kaili
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: <mailto:tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>>>To: <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>Kan Kaili
>>>Cc: <mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>Seun 
>>>Ojedeji ; 
>>><mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>Alan 
>>>Greenberg ; <mailto:alac at atlarge-lists.icann.org>ALAC Working List
>>>Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting alternatives
>>>
>>>Dear Kaili,
>>>
>>>Do you propose that in the selection of the 
>>>Board Director selected by At-Large, when we 
>>>face a tie, we delegate the ALT to decide which one should be dropped????
>>>
>>>
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>>>Executive Director
>>>Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI)
>>>Phone: +216 98 330 114
>>>           +216 52 385 114
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>Le 16 juin 2016 Ã  12:00, Kan Kaili 
>>>><<mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>kankaili at gmail.com> a Ã©crit :
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>I have followed this discussion with interest 
>>>>but also confussion.  It seems to me that 
>>>>different options have different pros, cons and possible outcomes.
>>>>
>>>>As a matter of fact, this reminds me of 
>>>>Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, basically 
>>>>saying that democracy can only go so far, and 
>>>>may not necessarily lead to a fair outcome 
>>>>acceptable by everybody.  In that case, some 
>>>>degree of "dictatorship" is warranted.  This 
>>>>is why republics are established, as well as 
>>>>why the presidential race between Bush and 
>>>>Gore was finally decided by the Supreme Court.
>>>>
>>>>Thus, in our case, when a tie has appeared, I 
>>>>suggest to delegate ALT to decide who will 
>>>>represent ALAC at the position.  After all, 
>>>>the ALT is elected by all of us thru a fully 
>>>>democratic process.  Good enough.  In the 
>>>>case that even the ALT cannot decide, the 
>>>>chairperson of ALAC will make the final decision.
>>>>
>>>>I believe this process is highly executable, 
>>>>and is also fully democratic to its limit.
>>>>
>>>>Being the most junior member of ALAC, just 
>>>>expressing some of my thoughts for your consideration.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/attachments/20160616/7e3988a9/attachment.html>