[NA-Discuss] The societal harm of domaining, episode 413

Thu Feb 11 17:45:32 UTC 2021

This is a useful conversation. Thanks to all who responded. :-)

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:03 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org>
wrote:

> I’m no lawyer nor do I pretend to be one (on this topic!). It’s hard to
> imagine it as a property right, with all the ways you can lose it. That
> said, you can lose real estate through criminal activity and failure to pay
> property taxes so I could I could shoehorn that interpretation as well.  I
> feel as though we will have failed as a community if this goes before the
> Supreme Court but perhaps that’s the wrong way of looking at it. Thanks for
> the links Nat.
>
>
>
> *From: *Nat Cohen <ncohen at telepathy.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:43 AM
> *To: *Jonathan Zuck <JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org>
> *Cc: *David Mackey <mackey361 at gmail.com>, NARALO Discussion List <
> na-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [NA-Discuss] The societal harm of domaining, episode 413
>
>
>
> As best as I understand it, in the U.S. in some courts (circuits) domain
> names are treated as a property right and in others as a contract right.
> Perhaps one day the Supreme Court will be called upon to resolve the
> conflicting interpretation.
>
>
>
> A Google search brings up various articles on the topic-
>
>
>
>
> http://www.circleid.com/posts/20180628_domain_names_considered_contracts_for_service_or_property_rights/
>
>
> http://www.circleid.com/posts/20170202_are_domain_names_contract_of_services_or_property_rights/
>
>
> https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/14770020910959628/full/html?skipTracking=true
>
> https://jipel.law.nyu.edu/vol-3-no-1-1-abbott/
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:19 AM Jonathan Zuck <
> JZuck at innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
>
> Since domain names are not actually “owned” but require constant renewal,
> isn’t the situation more akin to charging a premium to someone taking over
> a lease? All analogies are flawed, almost by definition, but this is the
> closest I’ve been able to come to one that fits.
>
>
>
> *From: *NA-Discuss <na-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf
> of David Mackey <mackey361 at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 7:54 AM
> *To: *Nat Cohen <ncohen at telepathy.com>
> *Cc: *NARALO Discussion List <na-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [NA-Discuss] The societal harm of domaining, episode 413
>
>
>
> Hi Nat,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information too.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure your comparison between tickets and domain names satisfied my
> curiosity.
>
>
>
> You state ... "In contrast, the pool of domain names are nearly infinite
> in number, the useful life is indefinite"
>
>
>
> Yes, I agree that the pool of domain names is nearly infinite, however,
> the pool of human relevant domain names is smaller than infinite. The value
> of a domain name is connected to the relevancy it has to humans (aka Brand
> Marketing). The primary/secondary domain name market falls within human
> relevant domain names. The domain name primary/secondary market is not
> infinite.
>
>
>
> The other point I'm not sure about relates to the "limited useful life" of
> a domain name vs. a ticket. Tickets are used to capture value for a real
> life event. Domain names are human constructs used to connect humans with
> computers. The nature of a ticket is different from the nature of a domain
> name with respect to the determination of "useful life". The "useful life"
>  of a domain name is governed by policy.  Policies can be changed.
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 9:20 AM Nat Cohen <ncohen at telepathy.com> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
>
>
> If I may chime in-
>
>
>
> A scalper buys a ticket from a pool of tickets that are limited in number
> and that have a limited useful life - usually a couple of hours on a
> particular date.  The ticket provides access to, and a source of funding to
> support the production of, exclusive content provided by a presenter who
> charges a fee to experience that content - be it a concert, a performance,
> a race, a fight, etc.
>
>
>
> In contrast, the pool of domain names are nearly infinite in number, the
> useful life is indefinite, and the domain names are not sold by the owners
> of exclusive content as the exclusive means to access that content.  Domain
> names are an alias for an online IP address.  They are sold by a registry
> provider whose job it is to match certain contact information and name
> servers with a particular domain name.  The character of domain names is
> much more similar to physical real estate which can be bought and sold many
> times in the resale market.  The role of a domain name registry is akin to
> that of a land registry not a concert promoter.
>
>
>
> In the past couple of weeks, I acquired lentes.com (Spanish for glasses)
> from the registrant who lives in Mexico and lentesdesol.com (sunglasses
> in Spanish) from the registrant who lives in Colombia.  They both no longer
> had a need for those domain names and valued the cash that I offered them
> more highly than continuing to own those domain names.  I hope to sell
> these domain names for more than I paid for them.  In what way is this free
> functioning of the secondary market a problem or akin to ticket scalping?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Nat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 8:10 AM David Mackey <mackey361 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Evan,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
>
>
> Just curious, do you think the Ticketmaster/Scalper relationship
> (primary/secondary market) for tickets is analogous to domain name markets?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:36 AM Evan Leibovitch <evan at telly.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> More grist for the mill -- why and how domaining hurts small business and
> entrepreneurs, and how it extracts value rather than adds:
> http://www.circleid.com/posts/20210210-now-we-know-why-its-hard-to-get-a-com/
>
>
>
> All you domain speculators who fancy yourselves marketing experts and are
> camped out in NARALO because, I would guess,  no other constituency will
> have you .... your turn. I see that some have already posted lame rebuttals
> on CircleID, read them and have a chuckle. (It's still noteworthy that
> nobody I know in ICANN-land defends the practice except those with direct
> financial interest in it.)
>
>
>
> (And thank you to the kind NARALO member who found the article, figuring
> that I might have more fun posting it here than they would. You're probably
> right.)
>
>
>
> Disclosure: I have never accepted money from AT&T or any other telco or
> ISP for that matter. My shitty mobile provider won't even give me a decent
> discount, but the others are no better. I did win a T-shirt a few years ago
> from SiriusXM, does that count?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
>
> @evanleibovitch / @el56
>
>
>
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