[NA-Discuss] Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes

Gordon Chillcott gordontc at look.ca
Fri May 6 17:02:41 UTC 2011


Darlene:

I'm also a bit - - confused, too.

I've heard, and seen at least two widely-divergent definitions of
"consumer" here and at SF.   In fact, I've heard "frank and earnest
discussions" on the topic.

Let me ask an even more naive question:   Just what is the person behind
the keyboard (or touchscreen, if you're into those) doing when they come
into the context of this Constituency?

Gordon


On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 16:50 +0000, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
> Darlene
> 
> This confused me as well
> 
> What's the actual difference between "consumers" and "users" ?
> 
> My thoughts would pretty much echo Darlene's (in this instance)
> 
> Regards
> 
> Michele
> 
> On 6 May 2011, at 17:40, Thompson, Darlene wrote:
> 
> > Hi Beau,
> > 
> > I read everything below and have comments on the users/consumers issue.  Perhaps I am too new at this game to fully understand the issue but it seems a little odd to me.
> > 
> > If I go to the grocery store and buy food and then eat it, I've just consumed the food.  If I go to a friend's house and they give me food for free and I eat it, I've just consumed the food.
> > 
> > How does this differ for the internet?  Whether the product is free or at a cost, we are still consuming them.  Also, by encouraging competition, I then have a choice amongst the free products and will choose the one that suits my needs the best prior to consuming it.  After consuming it, I may then choose to purchase the upgraded version (or not).  I am still a consumer either way.
> > 
> > Am I being extremely naïve and simplistic here?
> > 
> > D
> > 
> > Darlene A. Thompson
> > Community Access Program Administrator
> > Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP
> > P.O. Box 1000, Station 910
> > Iqaluit, NU  X0A 0H0
> > Phone:  (867) 975-5631
> > Fax:  (867) 975-5610
> > E-mail:  dthompson at gov.nu.ca
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: na-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:na-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Beau Brendler
> > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 11:58 AM
> > To: na-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > Subject: [NA-Discuss] Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> > 
> > 
> >   Those interested in the Consumer Constituency, may I ask that you read the
> >   exchange between Rosemary Sinclair (in which she has excerpted the comments
> >   of others) below. Please offer any comments as soon as possible. I think
> >   most of us involved in this would like to see it move forward without too
> >   much further delay.
> >   Thanks
> >   Beau
> > 
> >     -----Forwarded Message-----
> >     From: Beau Brendler
> >     Sent: May 6, 2011 11:52 AM
> >     To: Rosemary Sinclair , Alex Gakuru , ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> >     Subject: Re: : Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> >     Thanks for this.
> >     So the suggested new mission statement is this, correct?:
> > 
> >     The intended purpose of the Consumers Constituency is to serve as the
> >     conduit for consumer interests as they relate to those areas of the
> >     Internet within the scope of ICANN.  As representatives of consumers, who
> >     are  using  the Internet to purchase or use goods and services, the
> >     Constituency will focus on aspects of DNS that impact on consumers such as
> >     safety, security, stability, usability, access and any other appropriate
> >     concerns to ensure these are adequately represented within ICANN policy
> >     development.
> > 
> > 
> >     The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer
> >     choice in the DNS marketplace.
> >     With your permission, I will forward this around to some folks who have
> >     been involved in the CC for a while and see what they think. My guess is
> >     that there will be no problem. I'd like to forward it to NA-Discuss,
> >     possibly other ICANN lists.
> >     I'll give you some thoughts in the form of pros and cons.
> >     Pros first:
> >     * Going back to the purchasing goods and services thing is fine with me.
> >     In fact, there was some language in the previous CC proposed charters that
> >     was very similar. There's a con to this as well, see below for cons.
> >     * Seems to me this is a good way to delineate what is in the purview of
> >     the NCUC and what is in the purview of CC. In fact, some people have
> >     suggested that we should call it "consumer protection constituency"
> >     instead of just consumer. I'm fine either way. However, the NCUC could
> >     rightly argue that their mission involves consumer protection as well,
> >     specifically on privacy issues, so I'll just note that here.
> >     * This language would certainly be easier for consumer organizations
> >     (Consumentenbond, Test-Achat, my former employer, etc.) to grab onto.
> >     * I like the reference presumably to the AOC in the part that says: "The
> >     CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice
> >     in the DNS marketplace." Parroting some of the ICANN aspirational language
> >     would seem to be important at this phase in a bureaucratic and political
> >     sense.
> >     Cons next:
> >     * The terms "consumer" and "consumer choice" really seem to derail people.
> >     When  Alex and I convened the meeting in San Francisco, most of the
> >     feedback we got was discomfort with these terms and their meaning. So
> >     there is still an audience out there in the community who don't yet
> >     understand where "end-users" or "regular folks" fit in to the mix here, or
> >     within the NCUC. Further, if we are going to use the word "consumer
> >     choice" in the mission, then I would be in favor of defining what exactly
> >     that means, because I don't really know, and neither did several members
> >     of the ICANN board I spoke to in SF. Does that refer to the pricing of
> >     services offered by registrars and registries, etc.? Similarly, what is
> >     meant by "competition"?
> >     * Generally speaking, though the group Alex and I convened in SF was
> >     small, there was a lot of dissatisfaction with limiting the scope of the
> >     consumer  constituency  to  purchase of goods and services. I don't
> >     necessarily agree with that dissatisfaction. However, the more generalized
> >     proposed mission statement of the constituency that we came up with after
> >     SF, and that Milton is probably referring to in his comment, was literally
> >     "written" by the audience who attended that meeting on what the CC should
> >     be about, not by Alex or by me -- we really just shaped the feedback. So
> >     there is some alienation risk of that community, but I don't think that
> >     should hold us back from moving forward.
> >     * In other conversations with members of the ICANN board I had, there was
> >     limited to no agreement on what the word "consumer" means. So however we
> >     go forward, I think we have to be clear on how (and by whom) the plain old
> >     "end-user" or regular human being is being represented in GNSO policy
> >     making.
> >     * Can a reasonable argument be made, in light of the current NCUC mission
> >     language,  that the Consumer Constituency, with its emphasis on the
> >     purchasing of goods and services, etc., therefore be better aligned with
> >     commercial  or business interests? I'm not saying it should, but am
> >     wondering if that argument will be made. And I assume that issue would be
> >     addressed by the characteristics of the consumer constituency itself.
> >     *  This  purchasing  of goods and services language precedes Alex's
> >     involvement in the formation of the constituency, so I don't know what his
> >     comfort level with that language is. Alex, what do you think?
> > 
> >     -----Original Message-----
> >     From: Rosemary Sinclair
> >     Sent: May 5, 2011 9:02 PM
> >     To: Alex Gakuru , Beau Brendler , ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> >     Subject: : Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> > 
> >   Hi Alex and Beau
> > 
> > 
> >   Here are some comments/discussion from NCSG EC on the proposed Consumer
> >   Charter
> > 
> > 
> >   Iâve included the latest comments from email discussion below for you to see
> >   how our thinking has been evolving
> > 
> > 
> >   We think itâs best for you to have a look now and let us know how youâd like
> >   to proceedâ¦
> > 
> > 
> >   Cheers
> > 
> > 
> >   Rosemary
> > 
> > 
> >   Milton wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> >   But in that case they are not âconsumersâ they are âusersâ. What I am trying
> >   to avoid is a fragmentation of âuserâ representation across NCUC and CC.
> >   Each âconstituencyâ should have a clearly circumscribed domain and not
> >   purport to speak for each other.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   ROSEMARY wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >   but some goods and services may be "free" ....so I included "use"
> > 
> > 
> >   From: Milton L Mueller [mailto:mueller at syr.edu]
> > 
> >   Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2011 1:15 AM
> > 
> >   To: ncsg-ec at n4c.eu; Avri Doria
> > 
> >   Subject: [ncsg-ec] RE: Rosemary - Update on Consumer Constituency Charter
> >   Changes
> > 
> > 
> >   This looks just about right to me. The purchase of goods and services seems
> >   an  inalienable  part  of  our  concept  of  âconsumerâ so I like this
> >   clarification. But I am still confused by the phrase âwho are using the
> >   internet to purchase _or use_ goods and servicesâ ?? Is that an inadvertent
> >   typo,  or are you referring to digital goods or services that are used
> >   online? If the latter, then we still donât need the extra âor useâ because
> >   before you can use goods and services as a consumer you need to purchase
> >   them.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   From: Rosemary Sinclair [mailto:Rosemary.Sinclair at atug.org.au]
> > 
> >   Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 8:52 PM
> > 
> >   To: ncsg-ec at n4c.eu; Avri Doria
> > 
> >   Subject:  [ncsg-ec] Rosemary - Update on Consumer Constituency Charter
> >   Changes
> > 
> > 
> >   Hi all
> > 
> > 
> >   Always an interesting processâ¦clarifying the focus
> > 
> >   Also raises question of where NCUC Charter review is up toâ¦.
> > 
> >   Iâve made some changes to Mission to try to capture some of info below on
> >   Consumer Policy
> > 
> > 
> >   1.1              Mission[KB1]
> > 
> > 
> >   The  intended purpose of the Consumers Constituency is to serve as the
> >   conduit for consumer interests as they relate to those areas of the Internet
> >   within the scope of ICANN.  As representatives of consumers, who are using
> >   the Internet to purchase or use goods and services, the Constituency will
> >   focus on aspects of DNS that impact on consumers such as safety, security,
> >   stability, usability, access and any other appropriate concerns to ensure
> >   these are adequately represented within ICANN policy development.
> > 
> > 
> >   The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice
> >   in the DNS marketplace
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   To compare with âNon-commercialââ¦.NCUC Charter draft saysâ¦
> > 
> > 
> >   The purposes of the Noncommercial Users Constituency are to represent
> > 
> >   the views and interests of those who engage in noncommercial speech
> > 
> >   and activity on the Internet. It is further created to provide a voice and
> > 
> >   representation in ICANN processes to non-profit organizations and
> > 
> >   individuals that serve non-commercial interests and provide services such
> > 
> >   as education, community organizing, promotion of the arts, public interest
> > 
> >   policy advocacy, children's welfare, religion, scientific research, human
> > 
> >   rights and the advancement of the Internet as a global communications
> > 
> >   system for all segments of society.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Cheers
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Rosemary Sinclair
> > 
> >   Managing Director, ATUG
> > 
> >   Chairman, INTUG
> > 
> >   T:  +61  2  94958901  begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            +61 2
> >   94958901      end_of_the_skype_highlighting  F: +61 2 94193889
> > 
> >   M:    +61   413734490   begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            +61
> >   413734490      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > 
> >   Email: rosemary.sinclair at atug.org.au
> > 
> >   Skype: rasinclair
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the ATUG website for Updates and Information www.atug.com.au
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: Rosemary Sinclair
> >   Sent: Friday, 22 April 2011 3:29 PM
> >   To: Avri Doria; ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> >   Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] SPAM-LOW: Fwd: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on
> >   Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> > 
> > 
> >   Hi Avri and everyone
> > 
> > 
> >   I've made a couple of comments in the "Mission" section...looking for a link
> >   to the AOC ....which I have always seen as a mechanism for mainstreaming the
> >   consumer interests in ICANN processes....just a thought!
> > 
> > 
> >   I have just "dumped" the words where I think they might go...not attempt at
> >   elegance
> > 
> > 
> >   Not sure how we get a view from Alex/Beau on how they feel about this.....
> > 
> > 
> >   Cheers
> > 
> > 
> >   Rosemary
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Rosemary Sinclair
> > 
> >   Managing Director, ATUG
> > 
> >   Chairman, INTUG
> > 
> >   T:  +61  2  94958901  begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            +61 2
> >   94958901      end_of_the_skype_highlighting  F: +61 2 94193889
> > 
> >   M:    +61   413734490   begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            +61
> >   413734490      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > 
> >   Email: [1]rosemary.sinclair at atug.org.au
> > 
> >   Skype: rasinclair
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the ATUG website for Updates and Information [2]www.atug.com.au
> > 
> >   ______________________________________________________________________
> > 
> >   From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at psg.com]
> >   Sent: Thursday, 21 April 2011 7:16 AM
> >   To: Rosemary Sinclair
> >   Subject: [!! SPAM] SPAM-LOW: Fwd: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer
> >   Constituency Charter Changes
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Begin forwarded message:
> > 
> >   From: Avri Doria <[3]avri at acm.org>
> > 
> >   Date: 14 April 2011 16:43:07 GMT+02:00
> > 
> >   To: NCSG EC <[4]ncsg-ec at n4c.eu>
> > 
> >   Subject: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter
> >   Changes
> > 
> > 
> >   Hi,
> > 
> > 
> >   Alex Gakuru and Beau Brendler  have finished the merging of their respective
> >   groups and are submitting their charter for the Consumer Constituency for
> >   NCSG Executive Committee review and approval.
> > 
> > 
> >   Please review and let's discuss on the list.
> > 
> > 
> >   thanks
> > 
> > 
> >   a.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Begin forwarded message:
> > 
> >   From: Alex Gakuru <[5]gakuru at gmail.com>
> > 
> >   Date: 14 April 2011 14:54:18 GMT+02:00
> > 
> >   To: Avri Doria <[6]avri at acm.org>
> > 
> >   Cc:  Konstantinos  Komaitis  <[7]k.komaitis at strath.ac.uk>, Robin Gross
> >   <[8]robin at ipjustice.org>, Milton L Mueller <[9]mueller at syr.edu>
> > 
> >   Subject: Re: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> > 
> >   Dear Avri,
> >   I requested your advice after San Francisco CC meeting via below message.
> >   Could it have been lost to your spam filters?
> >   At this point, yes, please accept it a formal submission to NCSG Policy and
> >   excuse the route?
> >   regards,
> >   Alex
> > 
> > References
> > 
> >   1. mailto:rosemary.sinclair at atug.org.au
> >   2. http://www.atug.com.au/
> >   3. mailto:avri at acm.org
> >   4. mailto:ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> >   5. mailto:gakuru at gmail.com
> >   6. mailto:avri at acm.org
> >   7. mailto:k.komaitis at strath.ac.uk
> >   8. mailto:robin at ipjustice.org
> >   9. mailto:mueller at syr.edu
> > ------
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> 
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
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