[NA-Discuss] Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Gordon Chillcott
gordontc at look.ca
Fri May 6 17:02:41 UTC 2011
Darlene:
I'm also a bit - - confused, too.
I've heard, and seen at least two widely-divergent definitions of
"consumer" here and at SF. In fact, I've heard "frank and earnest
discussions" on the topic.
Let me ask an even more naive question: Just what is the person behind
the keyboard (or touchscreen, if you're into those) doing when they come
into the context of this Constituency?
Gordon
On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 16:50 +0000, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
> Darlene
>
> This confused me as well
>
> What's the actual difference between "consumers" and "users" ?
>
> My thoughts would pretty much echo Darlene's (in this instance)
>
> Regards
>
> Michele
>
> On 6 May 2011, at 17:40, Thompson, Darlene wrote:
>
> > Hi Beau,
> >
> > I read everything below and have comments on the users/consumers issue. Perhaps I am too new at this game to fully understand the issue but it seems a little odd to me.
> >
> > If I go to the grocery store and buy food and then eat it, I've just consumed the food. If I go to a friend's house and they give me food for free and I eat it, I've just consumed the food.
> >
> > How does this differ for the internet? Whether the product is free or at a cost, we are still consuming them. Also, by encouraging competition, I then have a choice amongst the free products and will choose the one that suits my needs the best prior to consuming it. After consuming it, I may then choose to purchase the upgraded version (or not). I am still a consumer either way.
> >
> > Am I being extremely naïve and simplistic here?
> >
> > D
> >
> > Darlene A. Thompson
> > Community Access Program Administrator
> > Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP
> > P.O. Box 1000, Station 910
> > Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0
> > Phone: (867) 975-5631
> > Fax: (867) 975-5610
> > E-mail: dthompson at gov.nu.ca
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: na-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:na-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Beau Brendler
> > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 11:58 AM
> > To: na-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > Subject: [NA-Discuss] Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> >
> >
> > Those interested in the Consumer Constituency, may I ask that you read the
> > exchange between Rosemary Sinclair (in which she has excerpted the comments
> > of others) below. Please offer any comments as soon as possible. I think
> > most of us involved in this would like to see it move forward without too
> > much further delay.
> > Thanks
> > Beau
> >
> > -----Forwarded Message-----
> > From: Beau Brendler
> > Sent: May 6, 2011 11:52 AM
> > To: Rosemary Sinclair , Alex Gakuru , ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> > Subject: Re: : Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> > Thanks for this.
> > So the suggested new mission statement is this, correct?:
> >
> > The intended purpose of the Consumers Constituency is to serve as the
> > conduit for consumer interests as they relate to those areas of the
> > Internet within the scope of ICANN. As representatives of consumers, who
> > are using the Internet to purchase or use goods and services, the
> > Constituency will focus on aspects of DNS that impact on consumers such as
> > safety, security, stability, usability, access and any other appropriate
> > concerns to ensure these are adequately represented within ICANN policy
> > development.
> >
> >
> > The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer
> > choice in the DNS marketplace.
> > With your permission, I will forward this around to some folks who have
> > been involved in the CC for a while and see what they think. My guess is
> > that there will be no problem. I'd like to forward it to NA-Discuss,
> > possibly other ICANN lists.
> > I'll give you some thoughts in the form of pros and cons.
> > Pros first:
> > * Going back to the purchasing goods and services thing is fine with me.
> > In fact, there was some language in the previous CC proposed charters that
> > was very similar. There's a con to this as well, see below for cons.
> > * Seems to me this is a good way to delineate what is in the purview of
> > the NCUC and what is in the purview of CC. In fact, some people have
> > suggested that we should call it "consumer protection constituency"
> > instead of just consumer. I'm fine either way. However, the NCUC could
> > rightly argue that their mission involves consumer protection as well,
> > specifically on privacy issues, so I'll just note that here.
> > * This language would certainly be easier for consumer organizations
> > (Consumentenbond, Test-Achat, my former employer, etc.) to grab onto.
> > * I like the reference presumably to the AOC in the part that says: "The
> > CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice
> > in the DNS marketplace." Parroting some of the ICANN aspirational language
> > would seem to be important at this phase in a bureaucratic and political
> > sense.
> > Cons next:
> > * The terms "consumer" and "consumer choice" really seem to derail people.
> > When Alex and I convened the meeting in San Francisco, most of the
> > feedback we got was discomfort with these terms and their meaning. So
> > there is still an audience out there in the community who don't yet
> > understand where "end-users" or "regular folks" fit in to the mix here, or
> > within the NCUC. Further, if we are going to use the word "consumer
> > choice" in the mission, then I would be in favor of defining what exactly
> > that means, because I don't really know, and neither did several members
> > of the ICANN board I spoke to in SF. Does that refer to the pricing of
> > services offered by registrars and registries, etc.? Similarly, what is
> > meant by "competition"?
> > * Generally speaking, though the group Alex and I convened in SF was
> > small, there was a lot of dissatisfaction with limiting the scope of the
> > consumer constituency to purchase of goods and services. I don't
> > necessarily agree with that dissatisfaction. However, the more generalized
> > proposed mission statement of the constituency that we came up with after
> > SF, and that Milton is probably referring to in his comment, was literally
> > "written" by the audience who attended that meeting on what the CC should
> > be about, not by Alex or by me -- we really just shaped the feedback. So
> > there is some alienation risk of that community, but I don't think that
> > should hold us back from moving forward.
> > * In other conversations with members of the ICANN board I had, there was
> > limited to no agreement on what the word "consumer" means. So however we
> > go forward, I think we have to be clear on how (and by whom) the plain old
> > "end-user" or regular human being is being represented in GNSO policy
> > making.
> > * Can a reasonable argument be made, in light of the current NCUC mission
> > language, that the Consumer Constituency, with its emphasis on the
> > purchasing of goods and services, etc., therefore be better aligned with
> > commercial or business interests? I'm not saying it should, but am
> > wondering if that argument will be made. And I assume that issue would be
> > addressed by the characteristics of the consumer constituency itself.
> > * This purchasing of goods and services language precedes Alex's
> > involvement in the formation of the constituency, so I don't know what his
> > comfort level with that language is. Alex, what do you think?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rosemary Sinclair
> > Sent: May 5, 2011 9:02 PM
> > To: Alex Gakuru , Beau Brendler , ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> > Subject: : Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> >
> > Hi Alex and Beau
> >
> >
> > Here are some comments/discussion from NCSG EC on the proposed Consumer
> > Charter
> >
> >
> > Iâve included the latest comments from email discussion below for you to see
> > how our thinking has been evolving
> >
> >
> > We think itâs best for you to have a look now and let us know how youâd like
> > to proceedâ¦
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > Rosemary
> >
> >
> > Milton wrote:
> >
> >
> > But in that case they are not âconsumersâ they are âusersâ. What I am trying
> > to avoid is a fragmentation of âuserâ representation across NCUC and CC.
> > Each âconstituencyâ should have a clearly circumscribed domain and not
> > purport to speak for each other.
> >
> >
> >
> > ROSEMARY wrote:
> >
> >
> > but some goods and services may be "free" ....so I included "use"
> >
> >
> > From: Milton L Mueller [mailto:mueller at syr.edu]
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2011 1:15 AM
> >
> > To: ncsg-ec at n4c.eu; Avri Doria
> >
> > Subject: [ncsg-ec] RE: Rosemary - Update on Consumer Constituency Charter
> > Changes
> >
> >
> > This looks just about right to me. The purchase of goods and services seems
> > an inalienable part of our concept of âconsumerâ so I like this
> > clarification. But I am still confused by the phrase âwho are using the
> > internet to purchase _or use_ goods and servicesâ ?? Is that an inadvertent
> > typo, or are you referring to digital goods or services that are used
> > online? If the latter, then we still donât need the extra âor useâ because
> > before you can use goods and services as a consumer you need to purchase
> > them.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Rosemary Sinclair [mailto:Rosemary.Sinclair at atug.org.au]
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 8:52 PM
> >
> > To: ncsg-ec at n4c.eu; Avri Doria
> >
> > Subject: [ncsg-ec] Rosemary - Update on Consumer Constituency Charter
> > Changes
> >
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> >
> > Always an interesting processâ¦clarifying the focus
> >
> > Also raises question of where NCUC Charter review is up toâ¦.
> >
> > Iâve made some changes to Mission to try to capture some of info below on
> > Consumer Policy
> >
> >
> > 1.1 Mission[KB1]
> >
> >
> > The intended purpose of the Consumers Constituency is to serve as the
> > conduit for consumer interests as they relate to those areas of the Internet
> > within the scope of ICANN. As representatives of consumers, who are using
> > the Internet to purchase or use goods and services, the Constituency will
> > focus on aspects of DNS that impact on consumers such as safety, security,
> > stability, usability, access and any other appropriate concerns to ensure
> > these are adequately represented within ICANN policy development.
> >
> >
> > The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice
> > in the DNS marketplace
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To compare with âNon-commercialââ¦.NCUC Charter draft saysâ¦
> >
> >
> > The purposes of the Noncommercial Users Constituency are to represent
> >
> > the views and interests of those who engage in noncommercial speech
> >
> > and activity on the Internet. It is further created to provide a voice and
> >
> > representation in ICANN processes to non-profit organizations and
> >
> > individuals that serve non-commercial interests and provide services such
> >
> > as education, community organizing, promotion of the arts, public interest
> >
> > policy advocacy, children's welfare, religion, scientific research, human
> >
> > rights and the advancement of the Internet as a global communications
> >
> > system for all segments of society.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > Rosemary Sinclair
> >
> > Managing Director, ATUG
> >
> > Chairman, INTUG
> >
> > T: +61 2 94958901 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61 2
> > 94958901 end_of_the_skype_highlighting F: +61 2 94193889
> >
> > M: +61 413734490 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61
> > 413734490 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> >
> > Email: rosemary.sinclair at atug.org.au
> >
> > Skype: rasinclair
> >
> >
> > Please visit the ATUG website for Updates and Information www.atug.com.au
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rosemary Sinclair
> > Sent: Friday, 22 April 2011 3:29 PM
> > To: Avri Doria; ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> > Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] SPAM-LOW: Fwd: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on
> > Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> >
> >
> > Hi Avri and everyone
> >
> >
> > I've made a couple of comments in the "Mission" section...looking for a link
> > to the AOC ....which I have always seen as a mechanism for mainstreaming the
> > consumer interests in ICANN processes....just a thought!
> >
> >
> > I have just "dumped" the words where I think they might go...not attempt at
> > elegance
> >
> >
> > Not sure how we get a view from Alex/Beau on how they feel about this.....
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > Rosemary
> >
> >
> >
> > Rosemary Sinclair
> >
> > Managing Director, ATUG
> >
> > Chairman, INTUG
> >
> > T: +61 2 94958901 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61 2
> > 94958901 end_of_the_skype_highlighting F: +61 2 94193889
> >
> > M: +61 413734490 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61
> > 413734490 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> >
> > Email: [1]rosemary.sinclair at atug.org.au
> >
> > Skype: rasinclair
> >
> >
> > Please visit the ATUG website for Updates and Information [2]www.atug.com.au
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> >
> > From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at psg.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, 21 April 2011 7:16 AM
> > To: Rosemary Sinclair
> > Subject: [!! SPAM] SPAM-LOW: Fwd: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer
> > Constituency Charter Changes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Avri Doria <[3]avri at acm.org>
> >
> > Date: 14 April 2011 16:43:07 GMT+02:00
> >
> > To: NCSG EC <[4]ncsg-ec at n4c.eu>
> >
> > Subject: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter
> > Changes
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > Alex Gakuru and Beau Brendler have finished the merging of their respective
> > groups and are submitting their charter for the Consumer Constituency for
> > NCSG Executive Committee review and approval.
> >
> >
> > Please review and let's discuss on the list.
> >
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> > a.
> >
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Alex Gakuru <[5]gakuru at gmail.com>
> >
> > Date: 14 April 2011 14:54:18 GMT+02:00
> >
> > To: Avri Doria <[6]avri at acm.org>
> >
> > Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis <[7]k.komaitis at strath.ac.uk>, Robin Gross
> > <[8]robin at ipjustice.org>, Milton L Mueller <[9]mueller at syr.edu>
> >
> > Subject: Re: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
> >
> > Dear Avri,
> > I requested your advice after San Francisco CC meeting via below message.
> > Could it have been lost to your spam filters?
> > At this point, yes, please accept it a formal submission to NCSG Policy and
> > excuse the route?
> > regards,
> > Alex
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:rosemary.sinclair at atug.org.au
> > 2. http://www.atug.com.au/
> > 3. mailto:avri at acm.org
> > 4. mailto:ncsg-ec at n4c.eu
> > 5. mailto:gakuru at gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:avri at acm.org
> > 7. mailto:k.komaitis at strath.ac.uk
> > 8. mailto:robin at ipjustice.org
> > 9. mailto:mueller at syr.edu
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>
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
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