<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Hi Olivier,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Thanks for the input.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">As you know I'm just a lowly ALS rep and have not been in any leadership position for quite a while.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">If these powers that be (all of whom I would assume are subscribed here) can be brought to consensus that IDN acceptance must be driven bottom-up and cannot succeed without research and end-user support, I'll gladly co-author a draft statement for ALAC's consideration. And you know I've written some good ones in the past ;-).<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">- Evan</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 2:23 AM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
Hello all,<br>
<br>
if you feel strong enough about this and can convince the powers
that be in our community perhaps could you suggest the ALAC makes a
Statement about this?<br>
Kindest regards,<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<div>On 04/04/2024 06:45, Bill Jouris via
At-Large wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Hi Evan,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(11,83,148);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Consider
that some of the apps in play are open source. ICANN could
simply contribute code to Mozilla, Thunderbird, Wordpress,
Signal and other projects to make their IDN support seamless.
If that support is an in-demand feature it will make those
applications more desirable in a competitive environment.</span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And I've been arguing, without apparent success, for ICANN to
do exactly that. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bill <br>
<br>
<div id="m_6137261640352585201m_-6281371399022516177ymail_android_signature"><a id="m_6137261640352585201m_-6281371399022516177ymail_android_signature_link" href="https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature" target="_blank">Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android</a></div>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 20px">
<div style="font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;color:rgb(109,0,246)">
<div>On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 11:27 AM, Evan Leibovitch</div>
<div><a href="mailto:evanleibovitch@gmail.com" target="_blank"><evanleibovitch@gmail.com></a> wrote:</div>
</div>
<div style="padding:10px 0px 0px 20px;margin:10px 0px 0px;border-left:1px solid rgb(109,0,246)">
<div id="m_6137261640352585201m_-6281371399022516177yiv3814696577">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Hi Bill,<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On
Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 12:18 PM Bill Jouris <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:b_jouris@yahoo.com" target="_blank">b_jouris@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr">It seems to me that the
function of UA day is inherently NOT
directed at end users. It is directed at
getting vendors, those who provide software
interfaces for end users, to make provision
for IDNs.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Is it really
directed at apps developers?</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Consider that
some of the apps in play are open source. ICANN
could simply contribute code to Mozilla,
Thunderbird, Wordpress, Signal and other
projects to make their IDN support seamless. If
that support is an in-demand feature it will
make those applications more desirable in a
competitive environment.<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr">End users are, of course,
wildly unlikely to be writing their own
browsers, email systems, etc., so they don't
really need to be involved.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">People aren't
writing browsers, email systems, etc. to satisfy
the needs of ICANN, they're trying to meet the
needs of end-users. So if end users don't care
about IDNs, neither will apps developers, since
they have other priorities such as speed,
security, and <b><u>end-user</u></b> focused
features such as VPNs, form auto-completion,
spell-checkers, incognito modes and so on.</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr"> (Except to the extend that it
would be useful to show some user demand
when trying to convince vendors to become
IDN compatible.)</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">End-user
demand for IDNs isn't "useful", it's a mandatory
prerequisite. Without such bottom-up demand, app
developers have no incentive to divert
resources. In the service of i18n developers
place far more emphasis on Unicode support,
multilingual UI and multilingual integrated
search engines. If these features satisfy
end-user needs then there is no reason for them
to spend extra effort on IDNs. Developers may
well see IDNs as just a way for ICANN and its
contractors to peddle more domains, and without
end-user interest they have no incentive to
facilitate that.<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">One must again
remind that ICANN is not a treaty-backed
organization. It has no means to impose, let alone
enforce, its decisions on the world. Its solutions
must be superior and <u>desired</u>. Thus, so
long as end-user demand is not seen as a <b>necessary</b>
component in advancing IDNs, they will remain a
non-priority to developers and an avoidable risk
to would-be IDN registrants.<br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">(Aside: I truly
find it amazing that this argument even needs to
be made within the community tasked with advancing
end-user interests within ICANN.)<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr">Making end users aware of the
option to use non-ASCII characters for these
is, to my mind, an entirely separate
discussion.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">If so, that
"separate discussion" is the only one worth
having within <i>ICANN At-Large</i>. Other
constituencies (civil society, governments, the
technical community, etc) all have their own
places to define and assert their own needs.<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr">Both whether it is a worthwhile
effort and how to go about it if so. It is
also something that would really need to be
deferred until something like Universal
Acceptance is available on at least the most
widespread browsers and email systems.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Chicken and
egg.</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">If end-users
don't care about IDNs, browsers and apps won't
support them.<br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">If browsers
and apps don't support IDNs, end-users won't
care about them.</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">BTW, the
objective is not for browsers to implement "UA".<br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Support for
IDNs is the solution being pitched, UA is just
the name of the marketing campaign.<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr"> Pitching to end users, when
the software they use does not yet support
IDNs, would be counterproductive.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">And THAT is
why, 20 years from now, ICANN will still be
wondering why IDNs never caught on.</div>
<div id="m_6137261640352585201m_-6281371399022516177yiv3814696577yqtfd14223">
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">- Evan</div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_6137261640352585201m_-6281371399022516177yiv3814696577yqtfd30220"><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_6137261640352585201m_-6281371399022516177yiv3814696577yqtfd21501">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
<a href="http://www.gih.com/ocl.html" target="_blank">http://www.gih.com/ocl.html</a></pre>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:12.8px">Evan Leibovitch, <span style="font-size:12.8px">Toronto Canada</span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">@evanleibovitch / </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">@el56</span></div></div></div>