<div dir="ltr"><div>Karl,</div><div><br></div><div>You bring important points to the discussion. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Our daily internet use hides a bustling world of devices talking to each
other, from smart thermostats to fitness trackers. This
device-to-device communication (D2D) is essential, but challenges arise.
Devices might not be fully tested for real-world internet quirks, and
slight variations in how they speak the same language can cause
problems. Efforts to make devices accept all information can be risky
for critical systems like cars or medical equipment. Just like ensuring
smooth conversations between people, we need to make sure these silent
exchanges run safely to keep our devices working as expected.</div><div><p>Your statement argues against forcing embedded device controllers to run Universal Acceptance (UA) code for several reasons:</p><span class="gmail-tunable-selection-menu gmail-ng-tns-c4222901701-44 gmail-ng-star-inserted" style="opacity:1"><div class="gmail-container"></div></span><span class="gmail-tunable-selection-menu gmail-ng-tns-c4222901701-44 gmail-ng-star-inserted" style="opacity:1"><div class="gmail-container"></div></span><ul><li>
<p><strong>Security Risks:</strong> Embedded devices often control critical functions and are rarely tested for complex code like UA. Running UA code on them significantly increases the risk of vulnerabilities that could be exploited by attackers.</p>
</li><li>
<p><strong>Unnecessary Burden:</strong> Most embedded devices have limited functionality and don't need to understand a wide range of information. UA forces them to handle potentially risky data they're not designed for.</p>
</li><li>
<p><strong>Fragile Infrastructure:</strong> The internet is already vulnerable, and adding complexities like untested UA code on embedded devices only makes it more fragile and prone to widespread disruptions.</p>
</li></ul><p>If it is dangerous to make these essential, often unseen devices handle complex tasks they're not built for, this could create new security holes and make the entire internet infrastructure even more vulnerable, especially when these devices have an international/global purpose.</p><p>My 2cents!<br></p></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><table style="direction:ltr;border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td style="font-size:0;height:12px;line-height:0"></td></tr><tr><td><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="width:100%" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;line-height:1.15"><tbody><tr><td style="height:1px;width:65px;vertical-align:top;padding:.01px 1px"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td style="vertical-align:top;padding:.01px 1px 14px 0.01px;width:65px;text-align:center"><img border="0" src="https://d36urhup7zbd7q.cloudfront.net/u/WaJDxOxZZYe/8e03b84b-9783-4d1a-bf05-d15847a861a1.jpeg" height="65" width="65" alt="photo" style="width:65px;vertical-align:middle;border-radius:0;height:65px;border:0;display:block"></td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align:top;padding:.01px;width:65px;text-align:center"><img border="0" src="https://d36urhup7zbd7q.cloudfront.net/u/WaJDxOxZZYe/5068983a-7838-42b7-86bb-798cfd8684ac.jpeg" height="65" width="65" alt="photo" style="width:65px;vertical-align:middle;border-radius:0;height:65px;border:0;display:block"></td></tr></tbody></table></td><td valign="top" style="padding:.01px 0.01px 0.01px 14px;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td style="line-height:1.2;padding:.01px 0.01px 14px 0.01px;border-bottom:solid 2px #bdbdbd" nowrap><p style="margin:.1px;line-height:120%;font-size:16px"><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;font-weight:bold;color:#45668e;letter-spacing:0;white-space:nowrap">Alfredo Calderon</span><br><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:bold;color:#646464;white-space:nowrap">eLearning Consultant</span></p></td></tr><tr><td nowrap width="248" style="padding-top:14px;white-space:nowrap;width:248px;font-family:Arial"><p style="margin:1px;line-height:99%;font-size:12px"><span style="white-space:nowrap"><a href="https://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com" style="font-family:Arial;text-decoration:unset" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="line-height:120%;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;color:#212121;white-space:nowrap">aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com</span></a></span></p></td></tr><tr><td nowrap width="1029" style="padding-top:8px;white-space:nowrap;width:1029px;font-family:Arial"><p style="margin:1px;line-height:99%;font-size:12px"><span style="white-space:nowrap"><a href="mailto:calderon.alfredo@gmail.com" style="font-family:Arial;text-decoration:unset" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="line-height:120%;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;color:#212121;white-space:nowrap">calderon.alfredo@gmail.com</span></a> | <span style="font-family:Arial;line-height:1.2;color:#212121;font-size:12px;white-space:nowrap"><a href="http://wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon" target="_blank">wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon</a></span> | <span style="font-family:Arial;line-height:1.2;color:#212121;font-size:12px;white-space:nowrap">Alfredo_1212</span> | <span style="font-family:Arial;line-height:1.2;color:#212121;font-size:12px;white-space:nowrap">Virtual School on Internet Governance</span> | <span style="font-family:Arial;line-height:1.2;color:#212121;font-size:12px;white-space:nowrap"><a href="https://virtualsig.org" target="_blank">https://virtualsig.org</a></span></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="padding:14px 0.01px 0.01px 0.01px"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="https://facebook.com/calderon.alfredo" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/fb/3b5998/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="facebook"></a></p></td><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="https://pr.linkedin.com/in/acalderon52" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/ld/0077b5/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="linkedin"></a></p></td><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="https://twitter.com/acalderon52" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/tw/000000/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="twitter"></a></p></td><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="http://www.pinterest.com/acalderon/" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/ptrst/bd081c/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="pinterest"></a></p></td><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/acalderon" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/sshare/0077b5/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="slideshare"></a></p></td><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="https://twitter.com/virtualschoolIG" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/tw/000000/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="twitter"></a></p></td><td align="left" style="padding-right:6px;text-align:center;padding-top:0"><p style="margin:1px"><a href="https://wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon" rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" src="https://cdn.gifo.wisestamp.com/s/wi/1CB7EB/32/0/background.png" style="float:left;border:none" border="0" alt="wiseintro"></a></p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td style="line-height:1%;padding-top:16px;font-size:1px"></td></tr><tr><td><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="width:100%;color:gray;border-top:1px solid gray;line-height:normal"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:9px 8px 0 0"><p style="color:#888888;text-align:left;font-size:10px;margin:1px;line-height:120%;font-family:Arial">IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.</p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td style="line-height:1%;padding-top:16px;font-size:1px"></td></tr></tbody></table><div href="http://WS_promo" style="width:auto;padding-top:2px;font-size:10px;border-top-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(238,238,238);margin-top:18px;display:table;direction:ltr;line-height:normal;border-spacing:initial"><div style="padding-top:2px"><a href="https://www.wisestamp.com/lp/promo/professional-email-signature?utm_source=promotion&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=create_your_own&srcid=" style="font-size:12px;color:#000;text-decoration:none" target="_blank">Create your WiseStamp <span style="color:#a50310">email signature</span></a></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:'ws-id KvAaYPqOO2L1';font-size:.01px;line-height:0"> </td></tr></tbody></table></div><img src="https://tracy.srv.wisestamp.com/px/wsid/KvAaYPqOO2L1.png" alt="__tpx__"></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 2:33 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large <<a href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>No, what I am saying is that things like embedded device
controllers ought not to be forced (or even socially coerced) to
bear the risks of running UA code that will almost certainly (for
those devices) almost never tested and may create vulnerabilities.</p>
<p>Our internet is already dangerously vulnerable and brittle, we
don't need to make it worse in the areas that we least see (such
as the area of device controllers.)<br>
</p>
<p> --karl--<br>
</p>
<div>On 3/29/24 11:01 AM, Roberto Gaetano
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Hi Karl
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not sure to understand correctly. Are you saying that
farmers in Bangladesh, as an example, should not have access to
the Internet in their language and script because of some bad
code in Tesla cars?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope I have misunderstood, please clarify.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Roberto<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Inviato da iPad</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">Il giorno 29.03.2024, alle ore 18:36,
Karl Auerbach <a href="mailto:karl@cavebear.com" target="_blank"><karl@cavebear.com></a> ha scritto:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>I would add, however, the observation that a large amount
of internet traffic does not involve humans at all. Rather
it is device-to-device traffic.</p>
<p>I work with trying to test and improve the resilience of
devices to real or potential, but usually inadequately
tested conditions. Many devices wobble or simply fail
when they face conditions beyond the nice, calm networks
of their developers. Those conditions may be caused by
natural conditions or otherwise.</p>
<p>I have, for example, seen how the introduction of new
devices, that may speak a slightly different (but fully
RFC compliant) version of a protocol can knock-out what
were previous stable devices on the network. One of
favorite examples comes from the days when we still had
TCP/IP bakeoffs when the introduction of a single PC using
FTP Software's stack could crash any and every instance of
machines running one of the their competitor's protocol
stacks - the cause was simply that they they sent a
sequence of IP fragments with the last fragment first
(which allows the receiver to better optimize its buffer
space). That's 100% RFC legitimate, but it crashed other
devices.</p>
<p>Back to UA - We usually forget that anything beyond the
most basic cases will be mis- or weakly implemented and
inadequately tested - and thus potentially subject to
outages due to "unusual" network traffic.</p>
<p>I have fear that the "U" part in "UA" efforts will drive
the addition of that kind of mis- or weakly implemented UA
code in devices that almost always will not have any
operational reason to go beyond classic ASCII. Such
devices may be in critical roles - self driving vehicles,
power plant controls, etc etc. (An appropriate protective
strategy for such devices might simply be for them to
silently reject and drop anything that is not ASCII rather
than trying to deal with it.)<br>
</p>
<p>I have a Tesla automobile. It is already filled with
some really badly designed and badly written code.
Automobiles are already speaking TCP/IP on automotive
Ethernets that are sometimes connected to the outside
world. A typical vehicle of today may have hundreds of
processors attached-to and chatting-on those internet
networks. I fear further risks should, hypothetically,
should something like a Unicode string get onto a
controller net in a car and cause something like a brake
anti-lock/stability-control processor to go awry. (I've
already experienced what can happen when a stability
control system goes bad - it can be a shockingly
terrifying experience, especially if it happens on a
crowded highway downhill curve at high speed.) (And I am
reminded of the fate of the <span lang="en"><span>Mars Climate Orbiter when
a mismatch between US measurements [inches, feet] and
metric measurements caused the probe to crash.)<br>
</span></span></p>
<p>As a kid I worked with my grandfather and father
repairing TVs - ones with vacuum tubes! Those boxes were
very sensitive to less-than usual operating conditions -
like being used on the same power circuit as a
refrigerator that had a motor that generated noise onto
the utility power wiring in a house. In those days there
was a joke that was quite applicable: A person goes to a
Doctor and says it hurts when I do this (and demonstrates
some activity that constitutes "this"). The Doctor's
reply is: Then stop doing that.</p>
<p>Same for UA. Perhaps the "Universal" part needs to be
de-emphasised by a recognition that there will be large
parts of our internet for which that is not necessary,
could add costs, and, worse, could create risks.<br>
</p>
<p> --karl--<br>
</p>
<div>On 3/29/24 9:51 AM, Carlton
Samuels via At-Large wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">A proposition
worthy of our support, especially from those of us
that are still concerned with equitable Internet
access! An insightful view of how a change in the
conversation could positively impact the lowly end
user.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Many
thanks Roberto.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Carlton</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
==============================<br>
<i><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">Carlton
A Samuels</font></i><br>
<font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><i>Mobile:
876-818-1799<br>
<font color="#33CC00">Strategy, Process,
Governance, Assessment &
Turnaround</font></i></font><br>
=============================</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 at
11:23, Roberto Gaetano via At-Large <<a href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi all
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have attended the UA Days in Belgrade. I am
taking the opportunity of a delay in my flight
back to drop some notes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The meeting was very interesting. We had a full
house in the morning, with numbers decreasing in
the afternoon. I don’t know about the online
participation. Please find the programme here: <a href="https://uaday.rs/program/?lang=en" target="_blank">https://uaday.rs/program/?lang=en</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The first panel was about multilingualism,
Sally Costerton was among the speakers. It seems
that the concept that the ultimate goal is
multilingualism in the Internet is taking speed.
To be noted that Anil Kumar Jain, UASG Chair,
mentioned the four “pillars” among which there is
no mention of the role of the user community.
Interesting contribution by Leonid Todorov,
arguing that we will have a stronger push to UA
readiness from places and people that are more
disadvantaged rather than from places and people
that are better aware - in an intellectual way -
about the need for equality of opportunities in
internet access.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The second panel featured some registries that
have been active in achieving results in term of
UA readiness. I was the last speaker, and brought
the point of view of the users, who are the most
affected by lack of UA, making also a couple of
examples. The good news is that my contribution
was well received, the bad news is that I made the
point that the user community should play a role -
I argued that it should be the “fifth pillar” in
the UA strategy - as users can put pressure on the
providers that are not UA ready, proposing that we
have a paradigm shift from “providers will
graciously become UA compliant as a bonus for the
users” to “users worldwide have the right to
demand that all users have the same Internet
experience regardless their language or script
they use”. The bad news is in the fact that I have
proposed that the user community - and At-Large at
the forefront - use their footprint in the wider
community to build awareness of the user rights
and produce pressure - also in collaboration with
governments - to providers to be UA compliant.
That means a call for action for At-Large.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In summary, we need to move from being
spectators, waiting for things to happen, for the
technical community to provide solutions, for
providers to deploy UA-compliant services, to an
active part of the community to demand and obtain
the same level of service for all Internet users,
regardless language, script, physical location, or
other factors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Roberto</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
At-Large mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large</a><br>
<br>
At-Large Official Site: <a href="http://atlarge.icann.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://atlarge.icann.org</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the
processing of your personal data for purposes of
subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the
ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>)
and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>).
You can visit the Mailman link above to change your
membership status or configuration, including
unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or
disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation),
and so on.</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
At-Large mailing list
<a href="mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>
<a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large</a>
At-Large Official Site: <a href="http://atlarge.icann.org" target="_blank">http://atlarge.icann.org</a>
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
At-Large mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large</a><br>
<br>
At-Large Official Site: <a href="http://atlarge.icann.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://atlarge.icann.org</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</blockquote></div>