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--></style></head><body lang=fr-TN link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Now those calls are free, and no travel necessary. Is that due to treaties? That cannot be said. They were not a good thing unless you were wealthy. The rest of us were sending mail on onion-skin paper to save on the postage. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Is it because of the technology evolution or because the treaties were bad (well, they weren’t perfect)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>You can say the same about crossing a distance of 10 km before the technology of motor vehicles and now, nothing to do with treaties.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>De : </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> au nom de Antony Van Couvering via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org><br><b>Répondre à : </b>Antony Van Couvering <avc@avc.vc><br><b>Date : </b>lundi 25 décembre 2023 à 20:34<br><b>À : </b>Evan Leibovitch <evanleibovitch@gmail.com><br><b>Cc : </b>Karl Auerbach via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org><br><b>Objet : </b>Re: [At-Large] The SSAC has published SAC123 and SAC122<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The premise is doubtful. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Did all those treaties work out that well in fact? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I remember taking a truck to a boat to a taxi to post office, then waiting for an hour to have a 10-minute phone call with my grandparents in a tiny booth, along with my brothers and sisters. That hit the family budget hard. We got to do that once a year, as a special treat, while in Kenya. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Make no mistake, the rates were set by a coterie of state monopolists and large corporations who played that role in some countries. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Now those calls are free, and no travel necessary. Is that due to treaties? That cannot be said. They were not a good thing unless you were wealthy. The rest of us were sending mail on onion-skin paper to save on the postage. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Dec 25, 2023, at 01:52, Evan Leibovitch via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 12:35 AM Barry Shein via At-Large <<a href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=MsoNormal>I'd also point out that the global<span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'> </span></span>voice phone network, postal systems, package delivery, various forms<span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'> </span></span>of travel, at least, also had a "one world" goal.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Sure, and we actually got there. To sort out standards and interoperability between the countries of the world, we used these archaic things called "treaties", managed by purpose-built intergovernmental organizations, that have to date worked out pretty well over the decades. We've had ITU for phones since 1865, UPU for mail since 1874, and ICAO for air travel since 1947. Treaties were messy to make and occasionally get abused but have worked out relatively well. Traditionally in these operations, governments and the public interest drive decision-making, while business interests serve in an advisory role, usually through industry associations. As a result, major decisions made by such bodies usually have force of law among treaty signatories.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>But the Internet world thought it knew better; it consciously and deliberately chose a different path. It bypassed the messiness of treaty-making and let industry make decisions while governments and the public interest were relegated to dispensable advisory roles. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Generally this has worked, if only by accident and fortune. In the case of purely technical bodies such as IETF, W3C and ICANN's *SACs, decisions and standards have been generally accepted on technical merit; yet they still don't have the power of treaties behind them. Any sovereign jurisdiction can trivially choose to opt out, jeopardizing its own interoperability with the rest of the world but otherwise not breaking international law.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Decisions involving politics, money or other non-technical factors have a tougher path. Institutions must make visible and ongoing efforts to sustain legitimacy, and these decisions often need to be promoted through marketing campaigns or other forms of collective begging. Two perfect example subjects of such begging are IPv6 and Internationalised Domain Names. And without force of treaty, dealing with obvious abuses (such as the continued presence of .su) have no means of enforcement.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>(IMO, ICANN actually did come close to "apocalyptic disaster" in 2020 -- whether it knew it or not at the time -- but was saved at the last minute by the California Attorney General) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Every time ICANN or its pieces envision an existential threat, vested interests always hold up ITU as a boogeyman just waiting to consume ICANN were it to falter. At this time it would be difficult to demonstrate that an ITU-ran domain namespace would have botched as many public interest issues as ICANN has. Or maybe not the ITU, but another purpose-built treaty-based IGO.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=MsoNormal>And in the same period we began to understand the negative aspects of<span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'> </span></span>globalization like nuclear-tipped ICBMs and pollution (particularly<span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'> </span></span>the CO2 responsible for climate change) which also know no political<span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'> </span></span>boundaries tho don't require interoperability with their target other<span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'> </span></span>than the laws of physics.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Funny how even for those issues there are international treaties and conventions and IGOs. The Internet stands alone as being the one phenomenon of global public interest without treaties behind it (or even in the works). The UN tasked the IGF with coming up with a usable path forward, and it has failed pretty hard at that task.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Maybe the WSIS follow-ups can start afresh, so the world can set some standards for the app- and island- and AI-centric future Internet that Karl described. And maybe this reboot could at last put the public interest at the forefront rather than an afterthought. Maybe, even, mention of the "T" word to ensure that Internet openness is maintained by law rather than whim.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'>Happy holidays,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"tahoma",sans-serif;color:#0B5394'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailsignatureprefix>-- </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>@evanleibovitch / @el56<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>At-Large mailing list<br>At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<br>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large<br><br>At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<br>_______________________________________________<br>By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). 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