[At-Large] ATLASIII Participation

Christian de Larrinaga cdel at firsthand.net
Sun Jul 14 23:16:19 UTC 2019


Dear Roberto,

I agree with so much with what you say and do. But I do worry when you
talk about democracy in context of managing Internet resources.

ICANN should not be a democracy it should be a focused manager of
technical dimensions only for a limited array of Internet resources.

Actually the first iteration of ICANN worried me because it politicised
the user role without establishing how a clear mandate could be created
let alone maintained. It also treated the entire management of these
resources as a political football. The ICANN Cairo meeting in 2000 was
particularly odd I recall for that reason.

The problem I have with the way ICANN has evolved is that it has turned
into a regulator owned and governed by the industry suppliers themselves
and that also carries with it political implications. The ICANN
community is not in my view the place for that "governance" policy
discussion either.

So I see ICANN has having lurched from one extreme to the other.

The list I drew up of where users are now disintermediated by middleware
is not an issue with having a supply chain for Internet services. I am
very content to see a robust and profitable industry offering networks
and application optimisations.

My issue is that the supply chain should engage for its customers - the
users - in such a way as to provide services designed for users and by
users. But increasingly what has been happening is that the level of
competition has been so low and the cost of moving suppliers so high
that market choice is illusionary and this has led the suppliers to take
great chunks out of services optimised for users and instead are
optimising for themselves alone. As this happens there is no other
mechanism in place to redress the balance.

The DNS "industry" has become particularly poor at supporting the user
whether registrants or users of registrants. I can't think when I last
had a usable offer from Registries and registrars to input into how
their service operates.  This is not just an issue with the new gTLDs
either.

I am going to keep an eye on Atlas III in the hope I can learn something
and I do hope its participants can help by becoming a channel for
information, offers for comments and inputs and outputs and suggestions
for what can be usefully contributed by others to it and beyond it.

I hope my comments have not been too negative or discouraging. I am very
aware as I think you will know of how much we all as volunteers
contribute in treasure and sometimes blood in trying to achieve the
right outcomes.

thank you for your responses and patience.

best wishes


Christian

Roberto Gaetano wrote:
> Dear Christian,
> I don’t have the answers to the many questions you ask, but I will briefly try.
> To the question about where the funding comes, I agree with you that ICANN puts in some “money". However, the overwhelming majority of the resources invested in ALAC are coming from the labour of the volunteers, who often even pay their way to meetings. Under whatever economic model or organisational theory developed so far, the analysis will prove that the soft skills provided by the volunteers provide the essence of the “wealth" of the organization, outnumbering by far the financial resources provided by ICANN. In summary, ALAC can exist without the financial support of ICANN, but cannot exist without the people.
> This is an essential consideration for the analysis. While ICANN can steer a bit the direction, privileging some funding destinations over others, it cannot control the flow of the mainstream.
> The conclusion that I draw, on which our opinions might differ, is that on the long run it is by and large irrelevant whether ICANN thinks at ALAC as windows dressing or not - what is relevant is what the ALAC team believes that we can collectively do, also because none of us is limiting our participation in Internet policy and governance activities to just ICANN, for Internet users worldwide.
> You correctly observe that the role of Internet users is crucial, and fear the role of the intermediaries. I share your concerns, but - as the many discussions with my good friend Karl Auerbach over at least two decades show - I am convinced that on a planetary scale representative democracy has far better chances to be achieved than direct democracy, that works well in small homogeneous communities but, IMHO, does not scale. So my problem is not how to eliminate the intermediaries, but how to drive the intermediaries to make sure that the needs and wishes of the user community are represented fairly.
> That is the model that many reasonably successful democracies use: we elect representatives, and try our best to address them to do the things we want them to do. Not a perfect system, but I stand behind the statement I made a couple of days ago, I do not see a better solution.
> So, I have used so many words to go to the detail of what I believe is our disagreement or at least divergent opinion. Funny. What a waste!
> But I can limit to one word my comment to your last sentence: “What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end”.
> YES!
> And I hope that ATLAS III will be a step in this direction. Let’s get all the brainware, the *real* resource we have, to achieve this objective.
> Cheers,
> Roberto
>
>
>> On 14.07.2019, at 15:15, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel at firsthand.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Roberto
>>
>> That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your
>> question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't
>> think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately
>> fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
>>
>> Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to
>> promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
>>
>> Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its
>> representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
>>
>> ICANN does as I understand it. 
>>
>> I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage
>> "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and
>> was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and
>> talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large
>> gathering after all.
>>
>> As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not
>> against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that
>> ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and
>> complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can
>> participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
>>
>> That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the
>> waters.
>>
>> The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real
>> because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that
>> is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for
>> connectivity between end points has to lie.
>>
>> Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse
>> infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
>>
>> Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in
>> optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and
>> capabilities between end points.
>>
>> So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the
>> bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at
>> the other side.
>>
>> Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has
>> excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
>>
>> Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs -
>> intermediaries are.
>> Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars.
>> - intermediaries are.
>> Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs -
>> intermediaries are
>> Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service
>> providers. - no one but the platform owner is.
>> increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or
>> Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly
>> given my list above they are defining the service design for users
>> rather than users themselves.
>>
>> Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled
>> out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and
>> extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
>>
>> For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week
>> voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS.
>> The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by
>> the end of the week.  But that was because of the bad public PR created
>> by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion
>> in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No
>> Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking
>> such nonsenses back.
>>
>> Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign
>> to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow
>> ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
>>
>> Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body
>> really address?
>>
>> I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. 
>> I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN
>> institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people
>> who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
>>
>> What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to
>> end.
>>
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> Roberto Gaetano wrote:
>>> Hi Christian,
>>> A couple of comments.
>>> While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it.
>>> As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜
>>> Cheers,
>>> Roberto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel at firsthand.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the
>>>> first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I
>>>> also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on
>>>> that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN
>>>> than most Internet users.
>>>>
>>>> This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to
>>>> represent my interests or views.
>>>>
>>>> C
>>>>
>>>> Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
>>>>> Dear Vanda,
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in
>>>>> the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same
>>>>> courses for two reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of
>>>>> knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up
>>>>> wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the
>>>>> precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that
>>>>> learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is
>>>>> vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment.
>>>>> 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of
>>>>> At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to
>>>>> achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a
>>>>> discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the
>>>>> community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are
>>>>> talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected,
>>>>> the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a
>>>>> waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my
>>>>> sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I
>>>>> also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in
>>>>> order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour
>>>>> per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I
>>>>> knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran
>>>>> it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens
>>>>> of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and
>>>>> behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt
>>>>> something - and this has completed my education, where I can now
>>>>> comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the
>>>>> public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took
>>>>> the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did.
>>>>> So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity
>>>>> Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to
>>>>> spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer
>>>>> was YES.  This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It
>>>>> was really not a real workload.
>>>>> Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being
>>>>> able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the
>>>>> Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out
>>>>> some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive
>>>>> response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am
>>>>> never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher
>>>>> course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my
>>>>> past knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
>>>>>> Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning
>>>>>> courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt
>>>>>> no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there
>>>>>> to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection
>>>>>> criteria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but 
>>>>>> I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before
>>>>>> the beginning of the process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best to all  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Vanda Scartezini/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Polo Consultores Associados/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 /*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Sorry for any typos. /*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf
>>>>>> of John Laprise <jlaprise at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02
>>>>>> *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco at cmsz.cl>
>>>>>> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco at cmsz.cl
>>>>>> <mailto:hcarrasco at cmsz.cl>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Dear John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online
>>>>>>   courses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Enviado desde mi iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise at gmail.com
>>>>>>   <mailto:jlaprise at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Hi Evan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Simply put, it wasn't about you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee
>>>>>>       agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard
>>>>>>       requirement. Full stop. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided
>>>>>>       to leave sealed, for better or worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Sent from my Pixel 3XL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       John Laprise, Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch
>>>>>>       <evan at telly.org <mailto:evan at telly.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           Hi Judith.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take
>>>>>>           the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't
>>>>>>           finish them in time. So apparently I have not
>>>>>>           sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC
>>>>>>           operates within ICANN.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at
>>>>>>           registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to
>>>>>>           end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the
>>>>>>           selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind
>>>>>>           of thing.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           - Evan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein
>>>>>>           <judith at jhellerstein.com
>>>>>>           <mailto:judith at jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               HI Evan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but
>>>>>>               as I understand it there were very few applications
>>>>>>               from NARALO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Judith
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               _________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Hellerstein & Associates
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Phone: (202) 362-5139  Skype ID: judithhellerstein
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               E-mail: Judith at jhellerstein.com <mailto:Judith at jhellerstein.com>   Website: www.jhellerstein.com <http://www.jhellerstein.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   Having been rejected from participating because I
>>>>>>                   would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   At-Large mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>               _______________________________________________
>>>>>>               At-Large mailing list
>>>>>>               At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>               <mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>>>>>               https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
>>>>>>               _______________________________________________
>>>>>>               By submitting your personal data, you consent to the
>>>>>>               processing of your personal data for purposes of
>>>>>>               subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the
>>>>>>               ICANN Privacy Policy
>>>>>>               (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           -- 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           @evanleibovitch or @el56
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           _______________________________________________
>>>>>>           At-Large mailing list
>>>>>>           At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>           <mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>>>>>           https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>           processing of your personal data for purposes of
>>>>>>           subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the
>>>>>>           ICANN Privacy Policy
>>>>>>           (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website
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>>>>>>           membership status or configuration, including
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>>>       At-Large mailing list
>>>>>>       At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>       <mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>>>>>       https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>>>       By submitting your personal data, you consent to the
>>>>>>       processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing
>>>>>>       to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy
>>>>>>       (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms
>>>>>>       of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit
>>>>>>       the Mailman link above to change your membership status or
>>>>>>       configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style
>>>>>>       delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> At-Large mailing list
>>>>>> At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
>>>>> http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> At-Large mailing list
>>>>> At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
>>>>>
>>>>> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
>>>> -- 
>>>> Christian de Larrinaga
>>>> @ FirstHand
>>>> -------------------------
>>>> +44 7989 386778
>>>> cdel at firsthand.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> At-Large mailing list
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>>>> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
>> -- 
>> Christian de Larrinaga
>> @ FirstHand
>> -------------------------
>> +44 7989 386778
>> cdel at firsthand.net
>>
>

-- 
Christian de Larrinaga
@ FirstHand
-------------------------
+44 7989 386778
cdel at firsthand.net



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