[At-Large] U.S. seizure of .ORG domain name

Fri Feb 4 15:13:08 UTC 2011

I would note that the same is true for a technical function located in any
other country in the world. The US is not a unique sovereign in this regard.
So the larger question should be one of the relationship between the types
of sites in a domain and the laws of the country in which the administrative
or technical functions reside and whether that should be a consideration
regarding the location of those functions. Of course then one has to take
into account is this a policy area in which ICANN has a role or is just an
observer and possible commentator. 

Ray

> -----Original Message-----
> From: at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-
> bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Carlton Samuels
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 9:54 AM
> To: At-Large Worldwide
> Subject: Re: [At-Large] U.S. seizure of .ORG domain name
> 
> Dev Wrote: If a ccTLD has outsourced its technical function (and
> several
> ccTLD do) to a US based registry operator,
> perhaps the US legal system can shut down a domain under a ccTLD by
> serving
> the seizure warrant to the US based registry operator of that ccTLD.
> 
> Dev T
> 
> In actual fact, yes.
> 
> Here's something else.  Domains representing search engine that had a
> link
> to the domain of the USG's primary interest were also seized!  Aiding
> and
> abetting, it is said.
> 
> Carlton
> 
> 
> ==============================
> Carlton A Samuels
> Mobile: 876-818-1799
> Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround
> =============================
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:19 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh
> <admin at ttcsweb.org>wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Evan Leibovitch <evan at telly.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > So if online casinos are illegal in the US, it should be no
> surprise that
> > > its legal system would take steps to shut down -- to whatever
> extent that
> > it
> > > could -- "onlinecasino.com". They'd have no jurisdiction, however
> on "
> > > onlinecasino.co.uk" -- unless that registrant was foolish enough to
> use
> > a
> > > US-based registrar.
> >
> > If a ccTLD has outsourced its technical function (and several ccTLD
> > do) to a US based registry operator,
> > perhaps the US legal system can shut down a domain under a ccTLD by
> > serving the seizure warrant to the US based registry operator of that
> > ccTLD.
> >
> > Dev T
> >
> >
> > > I don't agree that At-Large has much of a political role to play,
> in that
> > no
> > > country is going to listen to our complaints about content-related
> domain
> > > seizures. And it's not within our ability -- let alone our
> expertise --
> > to
> > > monitor and pass judgement on what content is illegal in all
> sovereign
> > > countries.
> > >
> > > Perhaps, though, we do have a role to play in educating users and
> > > registrants about the choices they make when obtaining a domain,
> > including
> > > issues related to the home location of the registry and registrar.
> (This
> > > need-to-know also extends to the location of the would-be
> registrant's
> > > content hosting, but that's way out of ICANN's scope.)
> > >
> > > Anything that helps educate the public that there is not a
> "default" TLD
> > but
> > > a set of choices -- each choice with certain benefits and risks --
> is
> > both
> > > useful and within our ability to provide IMO.
> > >
> > > - Evan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3 February 2011 16:08, Yassin Mshana <ymshana2003 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> This is Unspeakable!!!
> > >> It is commonly knowledge that No one Nation or State should
> interfere
> > with
> > >> events beyond its boundaries - unfortunately there are no
> boundaries
> > when it
> > >> comes to the Internet.
> > >> Internet-based businesses are lucrative yes! It is time a
> Government to
> > >> change/review its Customs/Revenue Collection systems not to take
> actions
> > >> that affect the rest of the Internet communities.
> > >> The GAC should see into this to avoid similar attacks to such a
> neutral
> > >> media.
> > >> Time for a Change is overdue on this.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:44:01 +0100
> > >> > From: patrick at vande-walle.eu
> > >> > To: at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >> > Subject: Re: [At-Large] U.S. seizure of .ORG domain name
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I support this, too.
> > >> >
> > >> > I am not discussing here if the site infringed
> > >> > on US laws. This is apparently the case. However, the decision
> to take
> > >> > down the domain has consequences well outside the territorial
> > boundaries
> > >> > where US laws apply. It gets even worse when there is one court
> > decision
> > >> > of a sovereign country which says that the site is legal. AFAIK,
> Spain
> > >> > is not a banana republic. I am convinced that due diligence and
> > fairness
> > >> > where followed by Spanish courts.
> > >> >
> > >> > I find it grossly impolite, to say
> > >> > the least, to impose one's legal and moral values to the entire
> world.
> > >> > This is what needs to transpire from our complaint.
> > >> >
> > >> > Over here, when
> > >> > court decisions order to block web sites, local ISPs are told to
> > either
> > >> > block DNS queries for the domain or null route the IP address. I
> am
> > not
> > >> > saying this is ideal or even effective. But at least, the impact
> does
> > >> > not spread beyond the territorial limits of the laws.
> > >> >
> > >> > Patrick
> > >> >
> > >> > >> I
> > >> > would support this.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Btw, the USG has used similar tactics to take
> > >> > down domains that are used for
> > >> > >> online gaming centred on Antigua in
> > >> > the Caribbean . Online gaming is legal
> > >> > >> in Antigua but it matters not
> > >> > to US interests.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Antigua has sought relief at the WTO on areas of
> > >> > WTO jurisdiction and she
> > >> > >> has repeatedly prevailed. Still has not
> > >> > mattered to our Uncle Sam.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Carlton
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > ==============================
> > >> > >> Carlton A Samuels
> > >> > >> Mobile:
> > >> > 876-818-1799
> > >> > >> Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment &
> > >> > Turnaround
> > >> > >> =============================
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011
> > >> > at 8:58 AM, Adam Peake wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> I propose the At Large/ALAC
> > >> > protest the U.S. government's seizure of
> > >> > >>> domain name
> > >> > Rojadirecta.org.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Rojadirecta is a popular sports streaming and
> > >> > P2P download site.
> > >> > >>> Rojadirecta is a legitimate Spanish business. Two
> > >> > Spanish courts have
> > >> > >>> ruled the site operates legally.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> It
> > >> > seems the U.S. Government Homeland Security's Immigration and
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > Customs Enforcement (ICE) division used the TLD as the means of
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > seizure in an attempt to take down the site. If the action was
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > against the registrar then a registrant would at least have a
> choice
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > of jurisdiction. But this action on ORG, and the actions on .COM
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > names last November essentially means the U.S. government
> considers
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > COM, NET and ORG to be nothing more than ccTLDs subject to U.S.
> whim
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > (this isn't a legal action, there has been no court case, no due
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > process.)
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Rojadirecta is now available under other TLDs
> > >> > >>>
> > >> >
> > >> > >>> as well its original IP address
> > >> > >>> .
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Expect there will be
> > >> > a lot written about this, this article's ok as a
> > >> > >>> starting point:
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > <
> > >> > >>>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110201/10252412910/homeland-
> security-seizes-spanish-domain-name-that-had-already-been-declared-
> legal.shtml
> > >> > [4]
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> I hope At Large will issue a statement
> > >> > protesting the use of the TLD
> > >> > >>> registry as a means of takedown. That
> > >> > it recommends when the NET, ORG
> > >> > >>> and COM contracts are renegotiated
> > >> > they should move to a jurisdiction
> > >> > >>> where such unilateral action by a
> > >> > government is not possible. That
> > >> > >>> the new applicant guidebook require
> > >> > applicants to only locate in
> > >> > >>> jurisdictions where such unilateral
> > >> > action by a government is not
> > >> > >>> possible.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Legitimate
> > >> > businesses should not be subject to the whim of a U.S. agency.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > Adam
> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> > >>> At-Large
> > >> > mailing list
> > >> > >>> At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org [5]
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large [6]
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org [7]
> > >> > >>
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > >> At-Large mailing
> > >> > list
> > >> > >> At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org [9]
> > >> > >>
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large [10]
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org [11]
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > At-Large mailing
> > >> > list
> > >> > > At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org [12]
> > >> > >
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large [13]
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org [14]
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Blog:
> > >> > http://patrick.vande-walle.eu
> > >> > Twitter:
> > >> > http://twitter.vande-walle.eu
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Links:
> > >> > ------
> > >> > [1]
> > >> > http://www.rojadirecta.me
> > >> > [2] http://www.rojadirecta.es
> > >> > [3]
> > >> > http://www.rojadirecta.in
> > >> > [4]
> > >> >
> > >>
> > http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110201/10252412910/homeland-
> security-seizes-spanish-domain-name-that-had-already-been-declared-
> legal.shtml
> > >> > [5]
> > >> > mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >> > [6]
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
> > >> > [7]
> > >> > http://atlarge.icann.org
> > >> > [8] mailto:ajp at glocom.ac.jp
> > >> > [9]
> > >> > mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >> > [10]
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
> > >> > [11]
> > >> > http://atlarge.icann.org
> > >> > [12]
> > >> > mailto:At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >> > [13]
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
> > >> > [14]
> > >> > http://atlarge.icann.org
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > At-Large mailing list
> > >> > At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
> > >> >
> > >> > At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> At-Large mailing list
> > >> At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
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> > >>
> > >> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
> > > Em: evan at telly dot org
> > > Sk: evanleibovitch
> > > Tw: el56
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > At-Large mailing list
> > > At-Large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
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> > >
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