[Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA

Wed Apr 18 18:49:22 UTC 2012

Thanks, Natalia! 

Cintra, I leave the format up to you. I would be happy with just a list of links that we can extract from.

We appreciate it...

Beau

-----Original Message-----
>From: Natalia Enciso <natalia.enciso at gmail.com>
>Sent: Apr 18, 2012 2:40 PM
>To: Beau Brendler <beaubrendler at earthlink.net>, registrants-rights-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org, Bob Bruen <bruen at coldrain.net>
>Cc: "registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org" <registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org>, fatima cambronero <fatimacambronero at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>
>Thanks Cintra for the corrections. 
>Beau I volunteer for the research about consumer rights related to domain. Do you have in mind any kind of format. Deadline?
>I will ask Fatima Cambronero for help who also volunteer for this group but for some reason is not in the mailing list. 
>Regards,
>Natalia Enciso 
>Enviado desde mi dispositivo BlackBerry® proveído por Tigo.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Beau Brendler <beaubrendler at earthlink.net>
>Sender: registrants-rights-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:37:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>To: Bob Bruen<bruen at coldrain.net>
>Cc: registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org<registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>
>Thank you, Bob. We may be getting ahead of ourselves here, but perhaps what we need to do is commission (or just ask nicely) if someone can do a research project to review any such iteration of consumer rights related to domains -- a literature review, I guess -- so that the WG can make a compilation of whatever exists. Any volunteers? Surely auDA is not the only org to put something forward, but I often hear auDA cited as the best example.
>
>I guess this is as good a time as any to define terms, however: "registrant" being a small subset of "consumer."
>
>And per Michele's note, maybe we are missing an important component if we do not also define registrant responsibilities as well:
>
>* registrants have a responsibility to comply with WHOIS requirements (i.e. not claiming to be Mickey Mouse).
>* registrants have a responsibility to [make registrations in good faith???] i.e. some sort of binding language in relation to domain abuse
>* registrants have a responsibility to use third-party privacy protection [in good faith???] for legitimate means, as opposed to using it as a blind to protect themselves from criminal prosecution...
>
>(I'm not a lawyer either...)
>
>And could that not also lead to a call for registrars offering privacy protection to comply with all applicable local and federal law to help ensure registrants are not using privacy proxy protection to engage in criminal behavior?
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bob Bruen <bruen at coldrain.net>
>>Sent: Apr 18, 2012 1:21 PM
>>To: Beau Brendler <beaubrendler at earthlink.net>
>>Cc: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" <michele at blacknight.ie>, "Garth Bruen at Knujon.com" <gbruen at knujon.com>, "registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org" <registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>>
>>
>>Hi Beau,
>>
>>Just as an FYI, consumer rights are defined in a particular way within the 
>>domain name world, but most countries and their states (regions, 
>>provinces, etc) usually have other laws (rules, regulation, etc) to 
>>protect consumers. The rights listed at auda are probably only a 
>>starting point.
>>
>>disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
>>
>>             --bob
>>
>>On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Beau Brendler wrote:
>>
>>> I believe Michele might be referring to this, from [http://www.auda.org.au/basics/can-i-register-before-hosting-is-arranged/#what-are-my-consumer-rights]:
>>>
>>> "What are my consumer rights as a registrant?
>>> As a domain name registrant, you have the right to:
>>>
>>> * choose your own registrar or reseller
>>> * if using a reseller, know which registrar your domain name is registered with
>>> * be made aware of all material terms and conditions and all charges for the domain name registration, before registering your domain name
>>> * transfer your domain name between registrars and resellers
>>> * have a complaint heard fairly by the registrar, and if dissatisfied with the result, have the complaint referred to auDA.
>>> * All auDA accredited registrars and their resellers must comply with a Code of Practice (http://www.auda.org.au/policies/auda-2004-04/) which aims to promote best practice and ethical behaviour within the domain name industry."
>>>
>>> BTW, auDA's code of practice, while relatively brief, includes a reference that incorporates any other Australian government's codes of practices on this issue. So, by extension, there are some interesting codes of practice within Australia's government that may bear some review by this WG, including its National Health and Medical Research Council's [http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines/publications/r39]
>>>
>>> Some of this is obviously outside this WG's scope, though there are some points regards C of I we may want to review.
>>>
>>> General question for the group: referencing auDA's point, "have a complaint heard fairly by the registrar, and if dissatisfied with the result, have the complaint referred to auDA."
>>>
>>> Is there an international body that a registrant could address its complaints to? Obviously we could not refer someone in, say, Romania with a registrar dispute, to auDA. Those of us in at-large know that the best route would not be to refer them to ICANN.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" <michele at blacknight.ie>
>>>> Sent: Apr 18, 2012 12:54 PM
>>>> To: Beau Brendler <beaubrendler at earthlink.net>, "Garth Bruen at Knujon.com" <gbruen at knujon.com>
>>>> Cc: "registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org" <registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org>, holly Raiche <h.raiche at internode.on.net>, Cintra Sooknanan <cintra.sooknanan at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Beau
>>>>
>>>> +1 and all that
>>>>
>>>> "Bad actors" hurt us all and if we can educate people (in the broadest sense) as to what they should / shouldn't do / use etc etc. then it can only help
>>>>
>>>> On a related note - have any of you looked at the materials that AUDA produced?
>>>>
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
>>>> http://www.blacknight.com/
>>>> http://blog.blacknight.com/
>>>> http://mneylon.tel/
>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>>>> Locall: 1850 929 929
>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>> Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Beau Brendler [beaubrendler at earthlink.net]
>>>> Sent: 18 April 2012 17:52
>>>> To: Garth Bruen at Knujon.com; Michele Neylon :: Blacknight
>>>> Cc: registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org; holly Raiche; Cintra Sooknanan
>>>> Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>>>>
>>>> Michele does have a point -- we will need the registrars' cooperation if this WG is going to have any success. And I know a number of them are certainly willing -- if for no other reason than to weed out bad actors -- to do so.
>>>>
>>>> I will keep the "rally the troops" encomiums to a minimum. We have no enemies here except criminals.
>>>>
>>>> Beau
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Garth Bruen at Knujon.com" <gbruen at knujon.com>
>>>>> Sent: Apr 18, 2012 10:16 AM
>>>>> To: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" <michele at blacknight.ie>, Beau Brendler <beaubrendler at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Cc: registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org, holly Raiche <h.raiche at internode.on.net>, Cintra Sooknanan <cintra.sooknanan at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>>>>>
>>>>> Michele,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see anything in Beau's statement that casts Registrars as the
>>>>> "enemy"
>>>>>
>>>>> The name of the group is "Registrants Rights" which are poorly defined. The
>>>>> responsibilities are pretty clear (if not enforced).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Garth
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" <michele at blacknight.ie>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:42 AM
>>>>> To: "Beau Brendler" <beaubrendler at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Cc: <registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 Apr 2012, at 14:32, Beau Brendler wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, Holly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You wrote: "Should we assign tasks and start having targets?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You also wrote: "...a detailed look at the RAA (2009 version plus the
>>>>>>> latest on the negotiations).  It became clear to us (thank you Garth for
>>>>>>> your detailed work on this) that the RAA cannot be used to enforce WHOIS
>>>>>>> accuracy requirements."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To these statements I write, yes and yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My suggestion for the WG's first step is to analyze and agree upon
>>>>>>> changes in the language to the 10 May 2002 Registrar Advisory Concerning
>>>>>>> WHOIS data accuracy
>>>>>>> (http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/advisory-10may02-en.htm).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a one-page doc that is frequently used as a loophole to
>>>>>>> circumvent the spirit of the RAA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have my own opinions on this doc. However, I am not a lawyer. I would
>>>>>>> like our co-chair, Cintra Sooknanan, who is a lawyer, to convene a
>>>>>>> lawyers' reading of this document right away, with an eye toward vagaries
>>>>>>> of language. We should each look at it and contribute our own comments to
>>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By Prague, I believe we should a) announce that this working group
>>>>>>> requires substantial updating of this 10-year-old advisory (ten years on
>>>>>>> the Internet is equivalent to going back to soup cans and string for the
>>>>>>> telephone system) and b) present our version of how it should be updated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe this will show the registrar community that this WG means
>>>>>>> business and is not just about creating a watery set of "aspirational"
>>>>>>> feel-good statements that may or may not be appended to some archived
>>>>>>> report somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beau
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With all due respect if you treat us (registrars) as the "enemy" it's not
>>>>>> going to help anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Registrants should have rights - yes
>>>>>> But they also have responsibilities
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And most registrars aren't going to trample over their registrants for a
>>>>>> small short term gain
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michele (AKA dirty filthy registrar)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Cintra Sooknanan <cintra.sooknanan at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Apr 18, 2012 9:18 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche at internode.on.net>
>>>>>>>> Cc: registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Registrants-rights] Update on ICANN meeting on the RAA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you very much Holly for this report. I have updated the wiki space
>>>>>>>> accordingly
>>>>>>>> https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Registrants+Rights+and+Responsibilities.
>>>>>>>> One small point of clarification, I believe there was an error in
>>>>>>>> Natalia
>>>>>>>> Benitez (ISOC Paraguay) is correctly Natalia Enciso. I believe Beau or
>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>> has updated the mailing list to include these members, but I will
>>>>>>>> confirm
>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beau and I are currently working with Matt to setup the monthly calls
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> this working group. We are also in the process of drafting the charter
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> proposed timeline to be approved by the working group.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the meantime, please go through the Essential Reading and Documents
>>>>>>>> section listed on the link above. I know this will just be a refresher
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> some :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cintra Sooknanan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Holly Raiche
>>>>>>>> <h.raiche at internode.on.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Everyone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of us - Carlton Samuels (ALAC), Beau Brendler (NARALO) Yrjo
>>>>>>>>> Lansipuro
>>>>>>>>> (ISOC Finland) Seth Greene (ISOC) Natalia Benitez (ISOC Paraguay) and
>>>>>>>>> myself met briefly during the ICANN meeting just to start a discussion
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> where to from here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The suggested tasks include
>>>>>>>>> - a review of the outputs from the GNSO Subteams A and B (attached) to
>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>> where we are up to with what was recommended
>>>>>>>>> - a detailed look at the RAA (2009 version plus the latest on the
>>>>>>>>> negotiations).  It became clear to us (thank you Garth for your
>>>>>>>>> detailed
>>>>>>>>> work on this) that the RAA cannot be used to enforce WHOIS accuracy
>>>>>>>>> requirements
>>>>>>>>> - any other issues we should raise, including ICANN compliance
>>>>>>>>> activities
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Once we have worked through the documents, the goals should be tied to
>>>>>>>>> both the output of the WHOIS review team report and the AoC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Beau - has this captured the bulk of what we talked about?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Should we assign tasks and start having targets?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>>>> Holly Raiche
>>>>>>>>> h.raiche at internode.on.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Registrants-rights mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registrants-rights
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> RAA WG Online: https://st.icann.org/RAA-Policy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Registrants-rights mailing list
>>>>>>>> Registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registrants-rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RAA WG Online: https://st.icann.org/RAA-Policy
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Registrants-rights mailing list
>>>>>>> Registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registrants-rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RAA WG Online: https://st.icann.org/RAA-Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions ♞
>>>>>> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
>>>>>> ICANN Accredited Registrar
>>>>>> http://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>> http://blog.blacknight.com/
>>>>>> http://blacknight.biz
>>>>>> http://mneylon.tel
>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>>>>>> US: 213-233-1612
>>>>>> Locall: 1850 929 929
>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>> Facebook: http://fb.me/blacknight
>>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>>>>> Park,Sleaty
>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Registrants-rights mailing list
>>>>>> Registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registrants-rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RAA WG Online: https://st.icann.org/RAA-Policy
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Registrants-rights mailing list
>>> Registrants-rights at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registrants-rights
>>>
>>> RAA WG Online: https://st.icann.org/RAA-Policy
>>>
>>
>>-- 
>>Dr. Robert Bruen
>>http://coldrain.net
>>http://coldrain.net/bruen
>>+1.802.579.6288
>
>
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>
>RAA WG Online: https://st.icann.org/RAA-Policy