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    <p>Alan,</p>
    <p>While I've not completed my research, your conclusion seems to
      conform to the city's belief here in New York - that it need not
      provide a process for participation by individual Internet users
      in shaping the use of the .nyc TLD. Assuming that's the case, that
      there's no clear responsibility on the part of ICANN or the
      registry, what responsibility does the At-Large have with regard
      to the needs of individual Internet users?</p>
    <p>To me, it would seem ALAC's role is to advise ICANN, politely,
      that it botched things with regard to city-TLDs, and to suggest a
      roadmap for reengaging individual Internet users with the
      governance process. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Are you in agreement or have I missed something? <br>
    </p>
    <p>Best,</p>
    <p>Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/13/2016 3:59 PM, Alan Greenberg
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:e495b6da-c36f-4f95-8b0c-84c13e26f545@EXHUB2010-1.campus.MCGILL.CA"
      type="cite">
      .paris is a community TLD, and thus subject to the control of the
      designated community. However, according to the TLD application,
      the
      "City of Paris" is deemed to be the representative of that
      community. So it is completely internal to the City of Paris how
      it
      implements any control or other input from Paris residents and
      businesses. <br>
      <br>
      This, for all practical purposes, puts it in the same status as
      .nyc
      (which did not apply as a "Community" TLD. Any rules it puts in
      place, or does not put in place, which gives some level of control
      or
      review to NYC residents or businesses is solely up to the city
      administration.<br>
      <br>
      Alan<br>
      <br>
      At 12/06/2016 06:07 PM, Louis Houle wrote:<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">Hi Tom and Alan,<br>
        <br>
        I read the Registry agreement - Paris and didn't find real
        relevant
        info:<br>
        <br>
        «7.8 No Third-Party Beneficiaries. This Agreement will not be
        construed to create any obligation by either ICANN or Registry
        Operator
        to any non-party to this Agreement, including any registrar or
        registered
        name holder.<br>
        <br>
        Community Registration Policies<br>
        <br>
        Registry Operator shall implement and comply with all community
        registration policies described below and/or attached to this
        Specification 12. In the event Specification 12 conflicts with
        the
        requirements of any other provision of the Registry Agreement,
        such other
        provision shall govern.<br>
        Two types of conditions must be fulfilled for the right to
        register a TLD
        name. These are: (A) community membership (bona fide presence
        in
        the Paris area) and (B) the additional requirements that:<br>
        The presence in Paris area and use of domain are generally
        accepted as
        legitimate. <br>
        The presence in Paris area and use of domain are conducive to
        welfare of
        the Paris area.»<br>
        <br>
        Goog evening<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <pre>Louis Houle
President
ISOC Quebec
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Louis.Houle@isoc.quebec">Louis.Houle@isoc.quebec</a>

</pre>
        Le 2016-05-13 à 16:40, Alan Greenberg a écrit :<br>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">As a first step,
          perhaps you
          should look at all of the application forms and registry
          agreements,
          particularly for those that are Community TLDs, and see what
          they
          committed to.<br>
          -- <br>
          Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos.<br>
          <br>
          On May 13, 2016 4:16:47 PM EDT, Thomas Lowenhaupt
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:toml@communisphere.com">&lt;toml@communisphere.com&gt;</a>
          wrote: <br>
          <dl>
            <br>
            <dd>Louis,<br>
              <br>
            </dd>
            <dd>It certainly would be good to know the level of
              engagement for IIUs
              in Paris and the other newly TLD'd cities. Perhaps the
              At-Large could
              craft a questionnaire to gather the state of affairs, to
              be distributed
              as widely as practicable. Certainly one might imagine
              excellent
              penetration in those cities with ALSes. From there we
              might develop a
              report of use to many. <br>
              <br>
            </dd>
            <dd>What's the best tool for creating a questionnaire these
              days?
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/">Surveymonkey</a>
              seems to be
              priced right? Anyone with experience in this area? Is
              there a better
              alternative? Are there others in the ICANN community that
              might be
              interested in a project of this sort?<br>
              <br>
            </dd>
            <dd>Best,<br>
              <br>
            </dd>
            <dd>Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
              <br>
            </dd>
            <dd>On 5/13/2016 2:51 PM, Louis Houle wrote:<br>
              <blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">
                <dd>Hi Tom,<br>
                  <br>
                </dd>
                <dd>Why is the situation rather opaque in .NYC. Because
                  inclusiveness is
                  not promoted ? Because transparency is not an
                  integrated process in the
                  pratices of the management team (the meetings are held
                  behind closed
                  doors? )<br>
                  <br>
                </dd>
                <dd>Governments obey to a set of rules and processes
                  that they control.
                  This includes the input or contribution from third
                  parties regarding the
                  direction to follow the management approach, etc. I
                  understand that this
                  the situation that you're cought with.<br>
                  <br>
                </dd>
                <dd>Your suggestion to get ICANN on board is certainly
                  appropriate. Is it
                  the only approach for you to advocate for a governance
                  process for NYC? I
                  don't know if other city TLD are facing a similar
                  situation as the one
                  you described. For instance, Dot-Paris is managed by
                  the city under the
                  authority of the mayer. Would it be useful to document
                  how they address
                  governance issues including the multistakeholder model
                  ? Would it be
                  useful to get the GeoTLD Interest Group on board also?<br>
                  <br>
                </dd>
                <dd>At Dot-Quebec, the Board adopted a very openned
                  governance approach.
                  Anybody who can contribute is welcome, but it's a
                  not-for-profit
                  organisation. It's not lead by the government even
                  though we received a
                  financial and political support for the project. We
                  support the
                  multistakeholder model but for the new members of the
                  Board, it needs to
                  be explained. We have people with various and strong
                  CV, but mostly no
                  ICANN experience for some of them. Knowledge sharing
                  is useful then, but
                  it is still necessary to have a partner who is willing
                  to
                  listen.<br>
                  <br>
                </dd>
                <dd>Regards<br>
                </dd>
                <dd><br>
                  <br>
                </dd>
                <dd>
                  <pre>Louis Houle

<dd>President

</dd><dd>ISOC Quebec

</dd><dd><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Louis.Houle@isoc.quebec">Louis.Houle@isoc.quebec</a>

</dd></pre>
                </dd>
                <dd>Le 2016-05-12 12:49, Thomas Lowenhaupt a écrit :<br>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">
                    <dd><font size="1">Joly,<br>
                        <br>
                      </font></dd>
                    <dd><font size="1">In response to my post contending
                        that the multistakeholder model was
                        not effectively meeting the needs of individual
                        Internet users (IIUs) in
                        New York City you said:</font>
                      <ul>
                        <ul>
                          <li>"​But are we? ALS's and individuals can
                            join RALOs, who in
                            turn can influence the ALAC, who advise the
                            ICANN board." <br>
                          </li>
                        </ul>
                      </ul>
                    </dd>
                  </blockquote>
                </dd>
              </blockquote>
            </dd>
          </dl>
          <dd><font size="1">That's correct. And that's what I'm doing
              right now.
            </font>
            <ul>
              <font size="1">
              </font>
              <ul>
                <font size="1">
                </font>
                <li><font size="1">"Or do you mean locally? Well, we
                    elect our representatives on
                    the NYC City Council, who are subject to their
                    constituents, at least in
                    theory."</font> <br>
                  <dd><font size="1">Following that line of thought we
                      really don't need a
                      city council or mayor at all. After all, we also
                      have a democratically
                      elected congress and president. Why bother with
                      city government? Just
                      call your congress member about the pothole,
                      garbage pickup, or idea for
                      a park improvement. And indeed you can. But my
                      congress member represents
                      about 700,000 people and avers to the local
                      council member who represents
                      160,000 residents. He has close ties, that include
                      budgetary
                      control, with the local service providers - the
                      pothole fillers,
                      sanitation and parks departments. So for local
                      service delivery issues
                      it's better to go local. And in this instance,
                      with .nyc, I think we have
                      agreed to go down one more layer and engage the
                      stakeholders in the
                      process. And indeed, ICANN talks bottom-up and
                      multistakeholder.
                      Minimally, minimally, ICANN could send a
                      notification to the local ALSs
                      when a city registry agreement change is proposed.
                      And it would seem
                      reasonable to provide the opportunity for that ALS
                      to respond, and for
                      that response to be considered. One might argue
                      that it is the ALS's
                      responsibility to keep an eye on ICANN's
                      activities. And that's a good
                      idea. And I support and look forward to the day
                      when we're provided by
                      ICANN with a budget to hire a staff member for
                      that task. But for now it
                      seems ICANN's generating a letter about proposed
                      changes to the registry
                      agreement is the simpler way to go. </font>
                    <ul>
                      <font size="1">
                      </font>
                      <ul>
                        <font size="1">
                        </font>
                        <li><font size="1">"There was an advisory board
                            for .nyc. It hardly met, and the
                            meetings it had were closed. You were on it.
                            It could've done something
                            to break its chains if the will was there,
                            surely.​"</font> <br>
                          <dd><font size="1">As I recall the situation,
                              the city created the advisory
                              board under duress - there was a challenge
                              to their .nyc application from
                              Connecting.nyc Inc. After the .NYC
                              Community Advisory Board's creation
                              the city retained tight control over its
                              operation. It appointed members,
                              scheduled the meetings, and set the
                              agenda. I informed media-types about
                              the meetings, but they were excluded by
                              the representatives of the mayor.
                              Additionally, even city officials were
                              excluded. Council member Gale
                              Brewer's representative, whom I invited,
                              was told to leave the room when
                              he showed up. And as I mentioned
                              previously, when they abolished it on
                              December 31, 2014 they wiped out any sign
                              of its existence from its
                              website. But you're right, those chains
                              probably could have been broken
                              short of self-immolation. I just never
                              figured out how. Where are we now?
                              While we've taken a hit with the abolition
                              of the .NYC Community Advisory
                              Board, I'm still trying to get a
                              governance process started where IIUs
                              can meaningfully participate in a
                              governance process. My latest thought
                              is to get ICANN, via the ALSs, on board
                              and advocating for a
                              multistakeholder governance process, one
                              that includes IIUs. Any thoughts
                              on how to achieve this are most welcomed.<br>
                              <br>
                            </font></dd>
                          <dd><font size="1">Best,<br>
                              <br>
                            </font></dd>
                          <dd><font size="1">Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
                              <br>
                            </font></dd>
                          <dd><font size="1">On 5/12/2016 1:19 AM, Joly
                              MacFie wrote:<br>
                            </font>
                            <blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite=""><font
                                size="1"><br>
                              </font><dd><font size="1">On Thu, May 12,
                                  2016 at 12:09 AM, Thomas Lowenhaupt
                                  &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:toml@communisphere.com">toml@communisphere.com</a>
                                  &gt; wrote:<br>
                                </font>
                                <dl>
                                  <br>
                                  <dd><font size="1">The point I'm
                                      trying to make is: If we've all
                                      accepted
                                      the multistakeholder model, how is
                                      it that the local ALSes and
                                      individual
                                      Internet users (residents and
                                      organizations as well) are left
                                      out of the
                                      decision making process?<br>
                                    </font><br>
                                  </dd>
                                  <dd><font size="1">Tom<br>
                                    </font><br>
                                  </dd>
                                </dl>
                                <font size="1"><br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">​But are we? ALS's
                                  and individuals can join RALOs, who
                                  inturn can
                                  influence the ALAC, who advise the
                                  ICANN board.<br>
                                  <br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">Or do you mean locally?
                                  Well, we elect our representatives on
                                  the NYC
                                  City Council, who are subject to their
                                  constituents, at least in
                                  theory.<br>
                                  <br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">There was an advisory
                                  board for .nyc. It hardly met, and the
                                  meetings
                                  it had were closed. You were on it. It
                                  could've done something to break
                                  its chains if the will was there,
                                  surely.​<br>
                                  <br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">​j​<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">-- <br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">Joly MacFie 218 565
                                  9365
                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="Skype:punkcast">Skype:punkcast</a><br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">--------------------------------------------------------------<br>
                                </font></dd>
                              <dd><font size="1">-</font></dd>
                            </blockquote>
                            <font size="1"><br>
                            </font><br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                          </dd>
                          <dd>
                            <pre>------

<dd>NA-Discuss mailing list

</dd><dd><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org">
NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>

</dd><dd>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss" eudora="autourl">
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss</a>


</dd><dd>Visit the NARALO online at
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.naralo.org">http://www.naralo.org</a>

</dd><dd>------</dd></pre>
                          </dd>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </dd>
                </li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </dd>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
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