R: R: Resultados de la votación: 2.014 At-Large Director Ejecutivo (asiento # 15) Proceso de Selección

apisanty en gmail.com apisanty en gmail.com
Jue Abr 3 17:32:34 UTC 2014 

[[--Translated text (en -> es)--]]

 Asunto: Re: R: R: Resultados de la votación: 2.014 At-Large Director Ejecutivo (asiento # 15) Proceso de Selección 
 De: apisanty en gmail.com

 Adam, 


 esta respuesta mía sólo irá a algunas listas (que es demasiado 
 -publicado cruz.) 


 Su admisión en la última frase es la clave de la simplificación 
 discusión del Comité de nominaciones de ICANN y darle un poco de enfoque realista. 


 Usted dice que a menudo sentía inadecuado para juzgar los méritos de los candidatos 
 que estaban muy por encima de su capacidad. Usted debería haber dimitido en ese mismo 
 momento, pero vamos a saltar esa parte e ir en una declaración más general. 


 El diseño del NomCom preveía una aplicación en la que todas las comunidades 
 que designa los miembros del Comité de Nominaciones enviaría un "estadista senior", 
 alguien que ejercería la administración sobre el bien común, sin 
 sin tener en cuenta que las comunidades 'propios intereses y principios rectores. En 
 practican esta no sucedió.En cambio con frecuencia las comunidades 
 las personas designadas no independientes, junior que tuvieron que demostrar sus méritos a 
 la comunidad en el Comité de Nominaciones y podía esperar alguna recompensa en el futuro. 


 Esta ruptura de la confianza y la renuncia de la administración ha sido tóxica. 
 No hay nada que se puede escribir en las reglas que pueden causar el cambio 
 hacia un modelo de gestión y la ganancia-confianza. Tiene que ser la acción de los 
 la propia comunidad que comienza a pensar menos en cómo conseguir un tamaño más grande 
 del pastel y más de cómo hacer el pastel mejor. 


 Por lo tanto creo que este es el peor de los tiempos para un replanteamiento de 
 el Comité de Nominaciones y otros procesos que se interponen a la Junta de Directores. El cambio puede 
 ser necesario, a pesar de lo que el cambio que se necesita es un debate muy abierto. Pero el 
 cosa para centrarse en estos momentos es la sustitución de la función de la NTIA, 
 nada más. Si eso implica otros cambios estos deben ser muy convincente. 


 Tuya es, 


 Alejandro Pisanty 




 El Jueves, 03 de abril 2014 a las 10:54 AM, Adam Peake <ajp en glocom.ac.jp> escribió: 


> I've been involved in NomCom far too many times :-)  And each year the
> community was asked for input on the criteria.
>
> ICANN is a large and complex organization: having experience of complex
> organizations, budgets, strategic planning, it part of the job.  Doesn't
> mean it has to be a person's only skill, but in a broad aggregate it needs
> to be present.  And smart people will learn, but you don't want too many
> learning on the job when they are voting on issues that affect millions and
> $millions.  Look at the people NomCom has appointed. There's only one that
> fits the pure "large corporate board" category.
>
> Selection of NomCom members does need more thought.  I often felt a fraud
> judging people on criteria I myself had little or no experience of.
>
> Adam
>
>
> On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:31 AM, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
>
> > Carlton,
> >
> > I completely agree with you, the criteria given to NomCom have to be
> > thoroughly revised.
> >
> > Experience on "large corporate boards" has been an indication given to
> > NomCom in the past, but I believe that one of the key words in the ideal
> > Director profile is "in aggregate".
> >
> > This means that while ideally a Director has to have an incredible
> knowledge
> > and experience, this is meant in the sense that the Board, as a whole,
> needs
> > to have this wealth of knowledge and experience, not necessarily each and
> > every Director. So, it might well be that at certain moments there is not
> > enough large corporate boards experience on the Board, and it will be
> > legitimate to look for reinforcing this aspect, but this does not mean
> that
> > all candidates that do not have such item in the profile should be
> > discarded. To make an example, if "large corporate boards" is a need,
> > "non-profit boards" is well another one.
> >
> > So the two big questions are:
> >
> > -          How to cefine the requirements for NomCom
> >
> > -          How to select the NomCom members (i.e. is the current
> mechanism
> > the best one?)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roberto
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Da: Carlton Samuels [mailto:carlton.samuels en gmail.com]
> > Inviato: mercoledì 2 aprile 2014 02:56
> > A: Roberto Gaetano
> > Cc: Sivasubramanian M; Kleinwächter, Wolfgang;
> > lac-discuss-en en atlarge-lists.icann.org; Spanish version of lac-discuss;
> > Discussion for At-Large Europe; afri-discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > Discuss; At-Large Announcements; APRALO; At-Large Worldwide; NA Discuss
> > Oggetto: Re: [lac-discuss-es] R: [EURO-Discuss] [APAC-Discuss] [At-Large]
> > VOTE RESULTS: 2014 At-Large Board Director (Seat #15) Selection Process
> >
> >
> >
> > Roberto:
> >
> > I too believe what you're proposing is not just sensible but strategic
> and
> > in the overarching At-Large interest.
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe its because of my position that on principle, I simply cannot
> accept
> > that in matters of governance and when part of a distant group and with
> > respect to decision-making, the representative should be obliged to 'take
> > the whip' - meaning follow the instructions - of his/her group.  This is
> my
> > position regardless of the size of the electorate; whether popularly
> elected
> > or not, I have greats doubts that one can ever be confined & judged as
> truly
> > reflecting the wishes of the constituency.
> >
> >
> >
> > Indeed at the onset, a few of us thought the liaison role properly
> > configured may likely have a more sustainable interest for the At-Large
> than
> > the single voting director.  So while we are largely agreed, I have one
> > quibble with your characterisation of the role of the NomCom; that set of
> > criteria utilised for selection of directors.
> >
> >
> >
> > In your estimation of this new role for the Board, I would hope that
> space
> > for more guidance is calculated so there is a balance in criteria between
> > persons having experience on 'large corporate boards' than those without.
> > And I say this in context of likely interpretation of  the meaning of
> > 'large'. For depending on who defines 'large', a whole set of likely
> > participants from my side of the world will enter the process already
> > disadvantaged.  And that does not augur well for participation at that
> level
> > for those of us at the edge of empire.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > -Carlton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Carlton A Samuels
> > Mobile: 876-818-1799
> > Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround
> > =============================
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Roberto Gaetano
> > <roberto_gaetano en hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have been one of the champions of the ALAC representation to the Board
> > with voting Directors, on par with the other supporting organizations.
> > So I believe that I cannot be suspected of anti-ALAC-ism if I now, years
> > later, argue that to fight for more Directors on the Board is a battle of
> > the past, that has little meaning looking at the evolution of the
> > organizazion and at a full realization of the multi-stakeholder model.
> > The multi-stakeholder model is not a parliamentarian model where the
> > stakeholder will get representation based on their relative "strength".
> The
> > parliamentarian scheme is OK for an organization in its infancy, where
> the
> > constitution has to be drafted. In a mature organization, with basic laws
> > and behaviours already defined, the appointment of representatives by
> > constituencies inevitably brings in the Board the petty interests of the
> > different constituencies instead of having a sort of council of the
> elders
> > that abstracts from the contingent interests looking for the common good.
> > This has been the guideline that was attempted with the GNSO Review,
> albeit
> > with only partial, although significant, results.
> > It is time to propose a different model for the Board as well, to get
> rid as
> > much as possible of the system by which we have representative of
> "parties"
> > that often have conflicting interests.
> > I believe that we should go towards reducing the SO-appointed Directors,
> and
> > have instead a larger share, possibly a super-majority, appointed by
> NomCom.
> > The NomCom should also get a precise description of the skill set that is
> > missing for that particular year, so that they can choose the names
> > accordingly.
> > Cheers,
> > Roberto
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Messaggio originale-----
> >> Da: euro-discuss-bounces en atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:euro-discuss-
> >> bounces en atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Sivasubramanian M
> >> Inviato: domenica 30 marzo 2014 18:27
> >> A: Kleinwächter, Wolfgang
> >> Cc: lac-discuss-en en atlarge-lists.icann.org; lac-discuss-es en atlarge-
> >> lists.icann.org; euro-discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org;
> > afri-discuss en atlarge-
> >> lists.icann.org; At-Large Announcements; APRALO; At-Large Worldwide;
> na-
> >> discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >> Oggetto: Re: [EURO-Discuss] [APAC-Discuss] [At-Large] VOTE RESULTS: 2014
> >
> >> At-Large Board Director (Seat #15) Selection Process
> >>
> >
> >> Dear Wolfgang,
> >>
> >> The original idea of nine Voting Directors was possibly conceived to
> > ensure an
> >> independent, user driven organization. NomCom was a good idea, but in
> the
> >> process At-Large lost the seats in the Board, in exchange for shared
> >> responsibility in the selection process.
> >>
> >> A better representation for At-Large, as originally envisaged, would
> > positively
> >> demonstrate that ICANN Governance is emphatically based on the multi-
> >> stakeholder model of Governance.
> >>
> >> In the recent At-Large elections, we have had an effective incumbent and
> >> four other qualified candidates, which goes on to prove that At-Large
> has
> >> matured, has people sufficiently qualified for Board positions. As you
> > have
> >> mentioned, we have the GNSO user communities with qualified people,
> >> which increases the the number of available qualified candidates even
> > more.
> >> In this context, if we revisit the discussions on more Board seats which
> > would
> >> reaffirm ICANN's faith in the multi-stakeholder model. Other
> Stakeholders
> >> might welcome such a discussion to improve user participation in the
> > Board,
> >> because it would essentially improve Trust in the ICANN process.
> >>
> >> More candidates from At-Large to Board positions could be appointed by
> two
> >> different processes:
> >>
> >> 1)  By the existing process whereby the AC selects / elects a candidate
> > and
> >> the chosen person is appointed. This introduces an election which could
> >> sometimes create differences, though such differences do not exist
> within
> >> this AC at the moment.
> >>
> >> 2)  By a process completely free of the Internal elections, by an
> internal
> >> NomCom. (initial thoughts, there are various ways of designing such a
> >> process, there are advantages and disadvantages to be considered)
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >>
> >> Sivasubramanian M
> >> India
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 5:32 PM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <
> >> wolfgang.kleinwaechter en medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I also want to join the many thanks to Sebastian (great job), to
> >>> Rinalia (great challenge) and Roberto and Tijani (well done). Nothing
> >>> more to add what Veronica has said so nicely and well structured.
> >>>
> >>> I this context: Don´t forget the History. In the present NTIA
> >>> transition discussion a lot of "orginal ideas" from 1998 are
> >>> remembered. One orginal idea was to give the At Large Membership nine
> >>> voting seats. Article V, Section 4 of the Orginal Bylaws (November 6,
> >>> 1998) said in para. iv: "Nine
> >>> (9) At Large Directors, selected pursuant to a process to be
> >>> established by a majority vote of all the At Large Board members of the
> >> Initial Board".
> >>> http://www.icann.org/en/about/governance/bylaws/bylaws-06nov98-
> >> en.htm#
> >>> V
> >>>
> >>> We know the history. Five voting directors were elected in 2000 for
> >>> two years. In November 2001 the At Large Membership Committee,
> >> chaired
> >>> by Carl Bildt, recommended the establishment of an At Large Supporting
> >>> Organisation
> >>> (ALSO) with the right to send six voting directors to the board.
> >>>
> >>> http://archive.icann.org/en/committees/at-large/final-report-05nov01.h
> >>> tm#_toc523422641
> >>>
> >>> In 2002, as part of the general ICANN reform process the ideas of an
> >>> At Large elections and the establishment of an ALSO with six regional
> >>> councils were abolished and were substituted by an "At Large Advisory
> >> Committee"
> >>> (ALAC) with five RALOs, a certification process for ALSs and the
> >>> establishment of a NomCon which now sends eight directors to the
> >>> board. The NomCom got five voting At Large Members. The chair of ALAC
> >>> was invited to serve as a non-votong liaison in the Board (similar to
> >>> the chair of the GAC).
> >>>
> >>> In the preparation for ATLAS I in Mexico in 2008 we were calling for
> >>> two voting ALAC Board members. We got one. Now ATLAS II is at the
> >>> horizon. We need a strong message from ATLAS II that the
> >>> multistakeholder model - which is now under tough discussion and has
> >>> to face its "moment of truth" - will work only, if you have a strong
> >>> civil society role in policy development and decision making.
> >>>
> >>> Here we have to invest more how to do this and to go out of our silos
> >>> both within the broader CS community (in particular with NCUC and
> >>> NPOC) as well as in cross constituency communication, coordination and
> >> collaboration with
> >>> private sector, technical community and governments.   A big challenge.
> >>>
> >>> Wolfgang
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> wolfgang
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Von: euro-discuss-bounces en atlarge-lists.icann.org im Auftrag von
> >>> Veronica Cretu
> >>> Gesendet: Sa 29.03.2014 15:55
> >>> An: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
> >>> Cc: lac-discuss-en en atlarge-lists.icann.org;
> >>> lac-discuss-es en atlarge-lists.icann.org;
> >>> euro-discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org;
> >>> afri-discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org;
> >>> ALAC-Announce en atlarge-lists.icann.org;
> >>> apac-discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org; At-Large Worldwide;
> >>> na-discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >>> Betreff: Re: [EURO-Discuss] [At-Large] VOTE RESULTS: 2014 At-Large
> >>> Board Director (Seat #15) Selection Process
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear colleagues, dear Olivier - thanks for this message and to echo
> >>> and build up on it, I would also like to:
> >>>
> >>> - Thank *Sebastian* for the work done in his capacity as a member of
> >>> the Board and wish him success in the upcoming new roles and
> >>> initiatives. We all continue building on our previous experiences, so
> >>> this process should be a continuous exercise and include those who can
> >>> learn from us - so, I am sure Sebastian will find good ways to share
> >>> the wealth of expertise gained in his role as a Board member and
> >>> continue serve the community in the best possible ways.
> >>>
> >>> - Congratulate *Rinalia* for being elected to the Board and wish her
> >>> much luck in this interesting, yet, challenging new role. These are
> >>> important times for ICANN which will require several key competences,
> >>> and awareness of geo-political realities in different parts of the
> >>> world. I trust Rinalia will be able to deliver on the expectations on
> > the
> >> community-at-large.
> >>>
> >>> - Thank *Roberto* for the wonderful leadership of the BCEC - it has
> >>> been for me, personally, a great experience. Like in any experience
> >>> there are always things to learn from and improve based on the input
> > from
> >> members.
> >>>
> >>> On this note, hope everyone attending ICANN 49 managed to return home
> >>> safe & sound, otherwise, wishing you safe travels back home!
> >>>
> >>> With very best,
> >>> Veronica
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
> >>> <ocl en gih.com
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I wanted to extend my congratulations to Rinalia Abdul Rahim in what
> >>>> was a very balanced election that required many rounds to
> >>>> differentiate the candidates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rinalia has been selected by our community to sit on the Board at a
> >>>> moment that is not only crucial for At-Large but also crucial for
> >>>> ICANN as a whole. She will take her seat at the 2014 ICANN Annual
> >>>> General Meeting - the last meeting of the year - which will take
> >>>> place in Los Angeles.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks to all of the candidates who have run for the position. It is
> >>>> through a wide candidate list that we can assure a wider choice of
> >>>> options for the future of our community.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks to Roberto Gaetano and the Board Candidate Evaluation
> >> Committee.
> >>>> Their work has been crucial in providing a first class short-list of
> >>>> candidates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks to Tijani Ben Jemaa and the Board Member Selection Process
> >>>> Committee for their stewardship of a process that has been
> >>>> challenging due to the multiple instances of Ties.
> >>>>
> >>>> The work of these Committees is not over. They will analyse lessons
> >>>> learnt and work together to provide the ALAC with an updated set of
> >>>> recommendations to improve the selection process next time around.
> >>>>
> >>>> Finally, I would like to remind you that until the 2014 ICANN AGM,
> >>>> the Board Member selected by At-Large is Sébastien Bachollet and
> >>>> would like to reaffirm the full support of our community in the
> >>>> challenging months ahead of us. We are well aware that he is not on
> >>>> the Board to "represent us" but as a candidate from our community
> >>>> selected to the Board by our community, he has proven himself to
> >>>> share his experience of Internet End Users with his Board Colleagues
> >>>> and we are grateful of his continued involvement in all matters of
> > ICANN.
> >>>>
> >>>> Kindest regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond
> >>>> ALAC Chair
> >>>>
> >>>> On 26/03/2014 15:06, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
> >>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tijani Ben Jemaa, Chair of the Board Member Selection Process
> >>>>> Committee
> >>>> (BMSPC) 2014, has asked that an announcement on the final vote
> >>>> results of the Board Director (Seat #15) selected by the
> >>>> ALAC/At-Large for 2015-2017 (to take their seat at the 2014 AGM) be
> >> published.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is to inform you that the 2014 At-Large Board Director (Seat
> >>>>> #15)
> >>>> Selection Process was completed on 25-March-2014.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Below is the list of candidates (listed in alphabetical order of
> >>>>> the
> >>>> family name) who ran for the position:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *   Rinalia Abdul Rahim
> >>>>> *   Sébastien Bachollet
> >>>>> *   Alan Greenberg
> >>>>> *   Evan Leibovitch
> >>>>> *   Jean-Jacques Subrenat
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After the FIRST ROUND VOTE and the SECOND ROUND's first vote, tie
> >>>> breaking vote, and second (final) vote, the candidate who is
> >>>> selected as the Board Director (Seat #15) by ALAC/At-Large for
> >>>> 2015-2017 is: Rinalia Abdul Rahim.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You may review the results, as well as the detailed information
> >>>>> about
> >>>> the selection procedure, under: https://community.icann.org/x/WinRAg.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Heidi Ullrich, Silvia Vivanco, Ariel Liang, Gisella Gruber,
> >>>>> Nathalie
> >>>> Peregrine and Terri Agnew
> >>>>> ICANN Policy Staff in support of ALAC
> >>>>> E-mail: <mailto:staff en atlarge.icann.org%
> >>> 3cmailto:staff en atlarge.icann.org
> > <mailto:3cmailto%3Astaff en atlarge.icann.org> >
> >>>> staff en atlarge.icann.org
> >>>>
> >>> <applewebdata://68497759-1B04-4F9B-84B7-
> >> B9445B8F305F/Regards,%20Heidi%
> >>>
> >> 20Ullrich,%20Silvia%20Vivanco,%20Matt%20Ashtiani,%20Ariel%20Liang,%20G
> >>> isella%20Gruber,%
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> 20Nathalie%20Peregrine%20and%20Julia%20Charvolen%20ICANN%20Policy
> >> %20St
> >>> aff%20in%20support%20of%20ALACmailto:staff en atlarge.icann.org
> > <mailto:
> aff%2520in%2520support%2520of%2520ALACmailto%3Astaff en atlarge.icann.o
> > rg>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> At-Large mailing list
> >>>>> At-Large en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >>>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org <
> >>> http://atlarge.icann.org/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> EURO-Discuss mailing list
> >>>> EURO-Discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
> >>>>
> >>>> Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
> >>>> <http://www.euralo.org/>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> *Veronica Cretu *
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *President, Open Government Institute**Republic of Moldova
> >>> - http://opengov.si.md/ <http://opengov.si.md/>*
> >>>
> >>> *Member of the Steering Committee, *
> >>> *Open Government Partnership (OGP);*
> >>> *
> >>> http://www.opengovpartnership.org/about/steering-committee/role-
> >> and-cu
> >>> rrent-membership
> >>> <
> >>> http://www.opengovpartnership.org/about/steering-committee/role-
> >> and-cu
> >>> rrent-membership
> >>>> *
> >>>
> >>> *Member of the Multistakeholder Advisory Group* *To the Internet
> >>> Governance Forum (IGF)*
> >>>
> >>> *http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/content/article/1549
> >>> <http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/>*
> >>>
> >>> *Member of the Nominating Committee of ICANN* *(Internet Corporation
> >>> for Assigned Names and Numbering)*
> >>>
> >>> *http://www.icann.org/en/groups/nomcom/2014/members
> >>> <http://www.icann.org< http://www.icann.org/> >*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Email: veronicacretu en gmail.com <veronicacretu en gmail.com> and/or
> >>> veronica en cretu.md <veronica en cretu.md>Skype: veronicacretu Phone:
> >> 373
> >>> 067435000*
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> EURO-Discuss mailing list
> >>> EURO-Discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
> >>>
> >>> Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
> >>> <http://www.euralo.org/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> APAC-Discuss mailing list
> >>> APAC-Discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/apac-discuss
> >>>
> >>> Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
> >> India +91 99524 03099 <tel:%2B91%2099524%2003099>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> EURO-Discuss mailing list
> >> EURO-Discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> >> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
> >>
> >> Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > lac-discuss-es mailing list
> > lac-discuss-es en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
> >
> > http://www.lacralo.org
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > EURO-Discuss mailing list
> > EURO-Discuss en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
> >
> > Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> lac-discuss-es mailing list
> lac-discuss-es en atlarge-lists.icann.org
> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
>
> http://www.lacralo.org
>






 --------------------------- 
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty 
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