[LAC-Discuss] Elections Process in LACRALO

Carlton Samuels carlton.samuels at uwimona.edu.jm
Tue Oct 7 10:34:57 EDT 2008


No Jacqueline, you're misreading the play; I am on the offensive.

No need to defend my own participation record in these councils since end of
2006; it may not be successfully contradicted.  Neither do I feel the need
to defend  anyone else's, your included. My response is evidence-based.

I am a member of several organisations, a few with membership numbering in
the *thousands* that have email discussion lists. Survey says it is a
handful, a really, really small fraction of the membership, that EVER post!
Anyone with a little time on hand can parse the [Internet] Governance list,
as an example.

I too believe that POSTINGS - note I did not use the word "participation" -
is *below* what you and I would like it to be. And we are severally agreed
that this is not good. So then, what is the antidote?

I would wish that all LACRALO members were equally educated and equally
well-informed and equally enthused on every issue. So count me among the set
unambiguously for informed comment from "educated" people. But as a
practical matter, it bears recalling that this is a process and not everyone
is starting from the same place nor is at the same place.

You probably note that I'm not the most patient of persons - I will tell you
one day what my father says about patience as an [overrated] virtue - and
not ever likely to suffer fools gladly. But the alternative available to us
is admit ALS to the club with a knowledge-based litmus test.  Clearly, that
is not good politics for ICANN, which is already labouring valiantly to
counter a widely-help view that it is catering to the cognoscenti and paying
lip service only to the egalitarian spirit it says it represents.  I too
would find any such litmus test offensive, since it presumes that people
cannot learn or educate themselves. 

We in a hurry but again, I contrast where we now are with the ICANN ALAC
formation *process*; it took ICANN more years than God took for the creation
to get to the ALAC we know from conception!  This RALO too, all of them,
will take time to mature.

And we must give them time, with constant encouragement.

Carlton

  

-----Original Message-----
From: Jacqueline A. Morris [mailto:jam at jacquelinemorris.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 08:03 AM
To: Carlton Samuels
Cc: matias at altamiragigena.com.ar; Erick Iriarte Ahon; 'At-Large Staff'; LAC
Discuss; 'ALAC-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org'
Subject: Re: [LAC-Discuss] Elections Process in LACRALO

Well, users who became  involved later than LAC in other regions are
educating themselves and participating a LOT more. I am not comparing LAC to
some generic group, but other groups in a very similar position. 
I don't think that defensiveness is a useful reaction, but rather I'd like
to see a discussion that considers potential real causes and potential
sutions for what is definitely a problem. LACRALO is 2 years old! That
should be enough time to see discussion  at least 1 comment on 1 issue!?!
If none of the issues are interesting to the ALSes, then should they be
ALSes? These are the ICANN issues that we joined. To discuss. If we don't
think they are useful or interesting, then it's a waste of time. 
Jacqueline

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device available from bmobile.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Carlton Samuels" <carlton.samuels at uwimona.edu.jm>

Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:02:54 
To: <jam at jacquelinemorris.com>
Cc: 'Matías Altamira'<matias at altamiragigena.com.ar>; 'Erick Iriarte
Ahon'<faia at amauta.rcp.net.pe>; 'At-Large Staff'<staff at atlarge.icann.org>;
<lac-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org>;
'ALAC-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org'<alac-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: RE: [LAC-Discuss] Elections Process in LACRALO


...Not much more than some issues are more complex than others and takes a
little more investment to understand.

Even then, SOME of us have made contributions to SOME issues on your list.
Nonetheless, while I am concerned about the low participation, I still don't
see it as an acute situation.  Compare this period with the 7 years pre-RALO
when a very small group "in the know" was "it". Not a whole helluva lot of
discussion took place then; I've seen the archives! 

LACRALO is 2 years old and the teething pains are plain for all to see. 

Here's the thing, these issues require knowledge. And in order to
participate, you must be educated.  How many of us, for example, ever
thought about the UN geographic region model that ICANN used to divide the
world into "interests"?  And why, for most of them, would you know. I happen
to know because my family has been in diplomatic service for awhile and
these are issues discussed time and again!   It is the INDIVIDUAL that must
make the commitment to acquire the knowledge so as to speak sensibly about
these matters.  And that will take time.  I, for one, am against the
"seeing-eye dog" model that says one person should be educated and tell
others what they should think.  If one would wish to do this, might as well
revert to the pre-RALO and ALAC Generation 1 days!  This said, I have seen
more effort by the At-Large staff to educate us on these matters in the last
year than ever and we are still not taking advantage of the briefings and
the various writings being promoted. 

Secondly, not every matter would have immediate interest to the membership;
English-speaking Caribbean ALS, for example, couldn't give a yawn about Fast
Track IDNs, simply because this is not a matter that will gain any traction
in our neighbourhood!  So I am not dismayed that folks do not take an
interest in EVERY topic that comes up. 

Thirdly, we have a philosophical disconnect. The AT-Large way of dealing
with issues turning on agreements between parties is an exercise in pot
luck. When legally-binding agreements hurt people, however unintentional,
there are remedies in law and equity. And if the pain is great enough,
somebody will salve it by filing suit in district court. ICANN knows that
and IMHO, that is the reason why the dire At-Large advisories tend not to
get ICANN too excited; the record will show they mostly ignore them.

Maybe the interventions on elections and travel have been more numerous than
others.  But probably these are issues that the majority of members
understand intuitively. I may not like it.  But at least it shows we've
started at some point.

Carlton 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jacqueline A. Morris [mailto:jam at jacquelinemorris.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 06:01 AM
To: Carlton Samuels
Cc: 'Matías Altamira'; 'Erick Iriarte Ahon'; 'At-Large Staff';
lac-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org; 'ALAC-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org'
Subject: Re: [LAC-Discuss] Elections Process in LACRALO

It's interesting.
LACRALO hasn't had any discussion on the list about any of the issues 
put to the ALAC for comments, such as
Fast Flux
RAA Amendments
Registrar transfer activities and redemption grace period
GNSO Improvements
IDN Fast track for ccTLDs
IPv6
Domain name front running
Geographic regions
DNSSEC and the DNS poisoning patch

But we did have a lot of discussion about the travel cutbacks and the 
election.
What does that say about LACRALO's interest and priorities?

Jacqueline
Carlton Samuels wrote:
> No, I STRONGLY disagree and is unalterably opposed to re-run the
elections.
>
> The requirements for the election process were well advertised. The
> candidates fulfilled all the requirements. Two candidates were duly
> nominated. One candidate withdrew BEFORE the election.  That was his
> unfettered right.  Where I come from, the last man standing is elected and
> returned.
>
> Alfa Redi exercised a right under the rules to call for a division.  I
> personally believe that this position is not useful, especially in a
> voluntary organization.  But I will defend to the end Alfa Redi's right to
> invoke the rules and take it my DUTY to protect that right.  
>
> We shall have a vote.   Enough already!
>
> Version Espanol:
>
> No, estoy firmemente en desacuerdo y es inalterable frente a volver a
> ejecutar las elecciones.
>
> Los requisitos para el proceso electoral se anuncian así. Los candidatos
> cumplen todos los requisitos. Dos candidatos fueron debidamente
designados.
> Uno de los candidatos se retira antes de las elecciones. Ese era su
derecho
> irrestricto. De donde yo vengo, el último hombre de pie es elegido y
> regresó.
>
> Alfa Redi ejercido un derecho en virtud de las normas de convocatoria de
una
> división. Personalmente, creo que esta posición no es útil, especialmente
en
> una organización voluntaria. Pero voy a defender hasta el final Alfa Redi
> del derecho a invocar las normas y tener a mi deber de proteger a ese
> derecho.
>
> Tendremos una votación. Basta ya!
>
> Carlton
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matías Altamira [mailto:matias at altamiragigena.com.ar] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 02:00 PM
> To: 'Erick Iriarte Ahon'; 'Carlton Samuels'; 'At-Large Staff';
> lac-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> Cc: 'ALAC-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org'
> Subject: RE: [LAC-Discuss] Elections Process in LACRALO
>
> Entonces vamos a votar por Carlos D. Aguirre y Sergio Salinas Porto, que
> fueron los únicos candidatos que se presentaron en tiempo y forma.
>
> So we'll vote between Carlos D. Aguirre and Sergio Salinas Porto, the two
> candidates that were duly and timely proposed. 
>
> Matías
>
> IIISI Rep.
>
> Matías Altamira
> Abogado
> ALTAMIRA GIGENA - Estudio Jurídico
> Bv. San Juan 101 Piso 2° Of. "A" - Córdoba - Argentina
> Tel/Fax: + 54 351 422-2057/ 428-1624
> matias at altamiragigena.com.ar
> www.altamiragigena.com.ar 
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: lac-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> [mailto:lac-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] En nombre de Erick
> Iriarte Ahon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 01 de Octubre de 2008 12:14 p.m.
> Para: Carlton Samuels; 'At-Large Staff';
lac-discuss at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> CC: 'ALAC-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org'
> Asunto: Re: [LAC-Discuss] Elections Process in LACRALO
>
> My answer is yes.
>
> Erick
>
>
> At 07:47 p.m. 30/09/2008, Carlton Samuels wrote:
>   
>> Dear Erick:
>>
>> The Secretariat is inclined to accept the recommendation of staff in 
>> this matter.  Please say unequivocally whether you are requesting a 
>> vote as outlined in LACRALO Rule 18.1.
>>
>>
>>
>> Assuming you answer yes, the Secretariat request that the mechanisms 
>> for an electronic vote be engaged within 48 hours of your confirmation 
>> and the voting period shall be seven days duration after expiry of that 
>> 48-hour setup time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Version Espanol:
>>
>> Estimado Erick:
>> La Secretaría está dispuesta a aceptar la recomendación del personal en 
>> este asunto. Por favor, decir de manera inequívoca si usted está 
>> solicitando una votación como se indica en el Artículo 18.1 LacRALO.
>>
>> Suponiendo que responder afirmativamente, la Secretaría solicitud de 
>> que los mecanismos para una votación electrónica se dedican dentro de 
>> las 48 horas de su confirmación y el período de votación será de siete 
>> días de duración después de la expiración de ese 48-horas tiempo de
>>     
> instalación.
>   
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Carlton
>>
>>
>>
>> From: At-Large Staff [mailto:staff at atlarge.icann.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 01:31 AM
>> To: Carlton Samuels
>> Cc: carlos aguirre; José Ovidio Salgueiro A.; Atlarge Staff; 
>> ALAC-excom at atlarge-lists.icann.org; Vanda Scartezini UOL
>> Subject: Elections Process in LACRALO
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Carlton:
>> cc: ALAC Representatives in the LAC Region, ALAC Executive Committee
>>
>> As you are aware, the nominations process in LACRALO has resulted in a 
>> single candidate who has been nominated, that being the incumbent, 
>> Carlos Aguirre.
>>
>> Since one ALS has requested that a vote be held on that single 
>> candidate, I began a research today to review the various instruments 
>> related to LACRALO ­ MoU with ICANN, Rules of Procedure, and Operating 
>> Principles ­ to determine what if any provision of these requires a 
>> vote, irrespective of the number of candidatures, or, if no vote is 
>> obligated, if the Rules of Procedure allowed any ALS representative to
>>     
> request a vote.
>   
>> There are no related provisions in the MoU or the Operating Principles.
>> However, there are with respect to the Rules of Procedure.
>>
>> Rule 18.1 allows any Member of LACRALO to invoke rules from the UNGA 
>> Rules of Procedure, with a few exceptions.
>>
>> Rule 127 of the UNGA Rules provides that:
>>
>> (a) The General Assembly shall normally vote by show of hands or by 
>> standing, but any representative may request a roll-call. The roll-call 
>> shall be taken in the English alphabetical order of the names of the 
>> members, beginning with the member whose name is drawn by lot by the:
>> President. The name of each member shall be called in any roll-call, 
>> and one of its representatives shall reply “yes”, “no” or “abstention”. 
>> The result of the voting shall be inserted in the record in the English 
>> alphabetical order of the names of the members.
>>
>> (b) When the General Assembly votes by mechanical means, a non-recorded 
>> vote shall replace a vote by show of hands or by standing and a 
>> recorded vote shall replace a roll-call vote. Any representative may 
>> request a recorded vote. In the case of a recorded vote, the General 
>> Assembly shall, unless a representative requests otherwise, dispense 
>> with the procedure of calling out the names of the members; 
>> nevertheless, the result of the voting shall be inserted in the record in
>>     
> the same manner as that of a roll-call vote.
>   
>> Version Espanol:
>>
>> a) De ordinario, las votaciones de la Asamblea General se harán 
>> levantando la mano o poniéndose de pie, pero cualquier representante 
>> podrá pedir votación nominal. La votación nominal se efectuará 
>> siguiendo el orden alfabético inglés de los nombres de los miembros, 
>> comenzando por el miembro cuyo nombre sea sacado a suerte por el 
>> Presidente. En las votaciones nominales, se anunciará el nombre de cada 
>> uno de los miembros y uno de sus representantes contestará “sí”, “no” o 
>> “abstención”. El resultado de la votación se consignará en el acta 
>> siguiendo el orden alfabético inglés de los nombres de los miembros.
>>
>> b) Cuando la Asamblea General efectúe votaciones haciendo uso del 
>> sistema mecánico, la votación no registrada sustituirá a la que se hace 
>> levantando la mano o poniéndose de pie y la votación registrada 
>> sustituirá a la votación nominal. Cualquier representante podrá pedir
>>     
> votación registrada.
>   
>> En las votaciones registradas, la Asamblea General prescindirá del 
>> procedimiento de anunciar los nombres de los miembros, salvo que un 
>> representante lo pida; no obstante, el resultado de la votación se 
>> consignará en el acta de la misma manera que en las votaciones nominales.
>>
>> In the view of the Staff, it would be a reasonable interpretation of 
>> Alfa-Redi’s email that the Member wishes to invoke this Rule. However, 
>> clearly the Staff cannot oblige the LACRALO Secretariat to interpret 
>> the email in this way.
>>
>> Further, since we are operating virtually, were a vote to be called, it 
>> would be held as provided in Rule 20, which modified the operation of  
>> Rule
>> 12.4 of the LACRALO Ordinary Rules of Procedure, and is as follows:
>>
>> 20: When a Virtual Meeting of the Assembly is held, the following Rules 
>> shall replace the original:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> 12.4 All Voting shall be conducted electronically. The Chair shall 
>> declare the length of time during which votes shall be cast, and the 
>> date and time of the closing of the vote. The Secretariat shall ensure 
>> that the results of the vote, including the votes cast and by which 
>> voter, are available to all representatives.
>>
>> Version Espanol:
>>
>> 20 Cuando se celebre una Reunión Virtual de la Asamblea, las siguientes 
>> reglas sustituirán a los originales:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> 12.4 Todas las votaciones se realizan electrónicamente. El Presidente 
>> declarará el tiempo durante el cual se deberán emitir los votos, así 
>> como la fecha y la hora en que finalizará la votación. El Secretario se 
>> encargará de que los resultados de la votación - incluyendo los votos y 
>> de quién es el voto - estén a disposición de todos los representantes.
>>
>>
>> The primacy of the LACRALO Ordinary Rules in the case of any conflict 
>> with the UNGA Rules is as provided in Rule 18.4 of the LACRALO Ordinary 
>> Rules, which state:
>>
>> Where the UNGA Rules of Procedure are invoked through the provisions of 
>> Rule
>> 18.1 or 18.2, should a conflict arise between the rule or rules invoked 
>> and these rules, these Rules shall take precedence, except where the 
>> combination of these Rules and those invoked would result in an 
>> impractical or unworkable process in the judgment of the Chair.
>>
>> Version Espanol:
>>
>> Si al recurrir al Reglamento de Procedimientos de la UNGA por medio de 
>> la Regla 18.1 o 18.2, surgiese un conflicto entre las reglas a las que 
>> se recurre y este Reglamento, este Reglamento prevalecerá, excepto 
>> cuando la combinación de este Reglamento y las reglas a las que se 
>> recurre den como resultado un proceso inoperante y poco práctico a juicio
>>     
> del Presidente.
>   
>> Taking all this into account, the Staff of ICANN recommends as follows:
>>
>> 1) That the Secretariat ask Erick if he is requesting a vote as 
>> provided in UNGA Rule 127 as provided under the LACRALO Ordinary Rules 
>> of Procedure in Rule 18.1 as a point of order.  We further suggest that 
>> the background provided in this email is given to Erick so that he can 
>> evaluate whether or not the outcome provided by the invocation of these 
>> Rules is what his organisation intends.
>>
>> If the answer is ‘Yes’, the we would further suggest that:
>>
>> 2) The Secretariat shall announce that an electronic vote will take 
>> place as soon as it is possible for the Staff to set the vote up, 
>> announce the time and date when voting shall be open, and distribute 
>> the list of authorised voters at the same time in case there are any 
>> amendments which members of LACRALO have forgotten to notify the 
>> Secretariat of.  We would suggest  the voting period shall be 7 days, 
>> commencing on the date and the time at which the vote is opened.
>>
>> It may be useful to note that as provided in the UNGA Rules of 
>> Procedure, as well as good practice and custom, any discussion of the 
>> vote or the candidates is out of order from the moment that the voting 
>> begins. The only exceptions is for points of order to be raised to 
>> understand the voting procedures. Voting is generally accepted as 
>> beginning from the moment a vote is called, not the moment that voting 
>> actually begins, and only completes at the point at which a vote has 
>> closed. Further, comments about a vote after a vote is concluded are 
>> generally restricted to brief comments to explain why a given member
voted
>>     
> in one way or another.
>   
>> Finally, Carlos, I would imagine that you (and probably others) may 
>> prefer the more logical outcome of being automatically returned for a 
>> second term, however, I hope that you will agree that it is better for 
>> everyone to feel that the Rules of Procedure are followed completely, 
>> to avoid any question as to the legitimacy of your election.
>>
>> The UNGA Rules, in English and Spanish, may be found at:
>> https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?rules_of_procedure
>> The LACRALO Rules, in English and Spanish, may be found at:
>> https://st.icann.org/lacralo/index.cgi?ralo_organising_documents
>>
>> We are at the service of all of you in these regards.
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Nick Ashton-Hart, Matthias Langenegger, Frederic Teboul ICANN At-Large 
>> Staff
>> email: staff at atlarge.icann.org
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>> LAC-Discuss mailing list
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>>
>> Homepage for the region: http://www.lacralo.org
>>
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>>     
>
>
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