<div dir="auto">Hello All,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Am in absolute agreement with Olivier's views.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Sala</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 7 Aug 2019, 10:50 pm Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com">ocl@gih.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Hello all,<br>
    <br>
    unfortunately, I am not 100% aligned on this and am rather more
    cautious:<br>
    <br>
    <i style="color:rgb(11,83,148);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><b>"...
        imploring ALAC to concentrate its comments on those issues with
        demonstrable effect on end users (abuse, confusion, stability,
        etc)"</b></i><br>
    <br>
    <div class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-cite-prefix">When I read this, I interpret is that
      it considers the "end user" as being a simple, definable entity.
      In reality, this is unfortunately not the case. End users have
      different priorities depending on what country they are from and
      the At-Large needs to tap input from every place on the planet,
      not just the vocal ones whose interests are "abuse, confusion,
      stability, etc."<br>
      Yes, there are many end users in the world, and no doubt in our
      community, that have these very concerns as a priority. But there
      are also many others who have both a different political outlook,
      but also priorities and understanding of the world. Consider the
      importance of a ccTLD or a gTLD. You, living in a country where
      freedom of speech is taken for granted, might not be able to grasp
      the political importance of a TLD in some parts of the world.
      Having been at the heart of conflicts regarding .MK and .PS, I can
      tell you that even though this was a long time ago, it got people
      in the street to be really upset. When .PS was allocated, some
      people in the street were celebrating whilst other people in the
      street were very upset.<br>
      OK - so they're ccTLDs. Well, consider the issue of Geo Regions
      now. It's not about abuse, or confusion or stability. It has the
      potential to tap into people's identity - whether that is
      cultural, or tribal, or traditional. It is way more complex than
      an issue of abuse, confusion or stability. For some people, it
      might be baffling that there is so much emphasis about Geo Regions
      because they don't see it as an important topic. For others, a
      region's name might equate to an immediate death in the family
      through a local conflict; a sense of pride to be part of that
      region, and a strong sense of hate towards any corporation that
      might use that region's name in a banal product. I also repeat the
      concern that there are hundreds of cultures/tribes in the world
      that have a tradition of oral history and that need to be given
      the chance of being provided with their own TLD as a matter of
      survival. That is affecting a small percentage of people on the
      planet, but I believe we have a duty towards them too.<br>
      <br>
      So I question calling the criterion "a demonstrable effect on end
      users", because this means it needs to have an effect on your
      average end user, and the world is not made up of average people,
      but of individuals. If a topic coming before the CPWG has an
      effect on one person, I'd like to hear from that person, bottom
      up, and not be told top down that "this has no demonstrable effect
      on end users" especially if this determination is
      mechanical/algorithmic.<br>
      <br>
      Kindest regards,<br>
      <br>
      Olivier<br>
      <br>
      ps. don't get me started on the credibility of At-Large in ICANN.
      I am of the view that ICANN would have no credibility without
      At-Large.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 07/08/2019 22:31, Jonathan Zuck wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
        Agree completely!!!!!!!!! <br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
        <span id="m_-4592412364822770976OutlookSignature">
          <div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
            Jonathan Zuck<br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
            Executive Director<br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
            Innovators Network Foundation<br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
            <a href="http://www.Innovatorsnetwork.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.Innovatorsnetwork.org</a></div>
        </span><br>
      </div>
      <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
      <div id="m_-4592412364822770976divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
          GTLD-WG <a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gtld-wg-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><gtld-wg-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org></a> on
          behalf of Eduardo Diaz <a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com></a><br>
          <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 7, 2019 8:56:14 AM<br>
          <b>To:</b> CPWG <a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><cpwg@icann.org></a><br>
          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [GTLD-WG] [CPWG] [registration-issues-wg]
          New gTLD Applicant Support - improve it, or scrap it?</font>
        <div> </div>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      I recommend that we re-focus our policy magnifying
                      glass towards ICANN policies as suggested by Evan
                      in a previous email: <i style="color:rgb(11,83,148);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><b>"...
                          imploring ALAC to concentrate its comments on
                          those issues with demonstrable effect on end
                          users (abuse, confusion, stability, etc)"</b></i></div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      So, I suggest that as part of the way the CPWG
                      works today, we frame any future policy work by
                      applying these criteria first and decide if we
                      want to comment, refer it to other WGs or do
                      nothing at all. </div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      Let's talk about this during today's call.</div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      -ed</div>
                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:43
            AM Evan Leibovitch <<a href="mailto:evan@telly.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">evan@telly.org</a>>
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
              </div>
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">
                  Hi Sala, long time no talk.<br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at
                  04:12, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <div> </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="auto">
                    <div dir="auto">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">My
                                challenge is whether a non-registrant
                                end-user interest exists in this either
                                way, and whether ALAC has credibility to
                                pass judgement on the program at all as
                                part  of its bylaw mandate.
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Of course, the ALAC has credibility,
                      were'nt you a part of ALAC.</div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    Indeed I was, even Vice-Chair for a few years.
                    That's how I got close enough to understand that
                    there is indeed a challenge of credibility. A
                    serious one that impairs our voice when we speak on
                    issues that *do* effect end-users.<br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    <br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    If we are asked "upon what do you base you assertion
                    that end users want XXX policy?", we struggle. In
                    reality the 15 ALAC reps are making judgment calls
                    regarding what they think end users want, based on
                    really little more than an educated guess. (the
                    model of ALAC members soliciting RALOs that then
                    solicit their ALSs on policy issues is rarely in
                    play.) Those who may oppose our PoV know this, and
                    have a valid point when they challenge the basis
                    upon which we choose our sides. Often our educated
                    guesses are good ones but that's still all they are,
                    devoid of real research of what end-users want/need
                    from ICANN.<br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div> </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="auto">
                    <div dir="auto">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">IMO,
                                this is an issue of interest to other
                                ICANN constituencies but the end-user
                                constituency has no stake in how it is
                                resolved.</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">I disagree. The end user has a stake
                      as was with the Amazon scenario etc.</div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    Please elaborate. Exactly what stake does the
                    end-user have?</div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    Do you really think end-users care who owns .amazon?
                    Upon what do you base this assertion?</div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    When I asked around to people I knew who weren't
                    techies or policy wonks, there was actually a
                    general sentiment that it didn't matter, and if they
                    had to choose .amazon should go to the book company
                    and .amazonas should go to the governments if they
                    really thought it was needed.<br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    <br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    I suspect that if we solicited public opinion,
                    globally more people would find it more useful if
                    the bookstore owned the TLD. Again, what we might
                    guess with an NGO mindset might conflict with what
                    end-users really want. So when we stake a position
                    and are challenged, upon what do we base our PoV?
                    Credibility challenge.<br>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div> </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="auto">
                    <div dir="auto">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"></span>The
                                question at hand is not "is Applicant
                                support worthwhile" but "do end users
                                care if there is applicant support or
                                not".</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Of course they do</div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    Evidence? Rationale? Please, tell me exactly why
                    they care. Not "should they care" but "do they
                    care". I really want to know the reasoning behind
                    the assertion.</div>
                </div>
                <div> </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="auto">
                    <div dir="auto">even if they are not aware, that is
                      where the ALAC has to make a judgment call.</div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    Again, what is rationale for why ALAC *must* speak
                    up even if its constituency has no interest in the
                    issue?<br>
                  </div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    Do we speak merely for the sake of speaking?</div>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="auto">Noted, but your questioning the
                    credibility of ALAC</div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                    As Olivier and Maureen and anyone else active in
                    ALAC can attest, the credibility challenge comes
                    from all over ICANN. I am trying to address it by
                    imploring ALAC to concentrate its comments on those
                    issues with demonstrable effect on end users (abuse,
                    confusion, stability, etc)</div>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class="gmail_default">
                - Evan</div>
              <br>
            </div>
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            and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>).
            You can visit the Mailman link above to change your
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            altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</blockquote>
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      <fieldset class="m_-4592412364822770976mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
CPWG mailing list
<a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:CPWG@icann.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">CPWG@icann.org</a>
<a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg</a>

_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="m_-4592412364822770976mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
GTLD-WG mailing list
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Working Group direct URL: <a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/New+GTLDs" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/New+GTLDs</a>
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a class="m_-4592412364822770976moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
CPWG mailing list<br>
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on._______________________________________________<br>
registration-issues-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:registration-issues-wg@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">registration-issues-wg@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registration-issues-wg" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registration-issues-wg</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</blockquote></div>