<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">FYI - CW<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"<a href="mailto:cw@christopherwilkinson.eu" class="">cw@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>" <<a href="mailto:cw@christopherwilkinson.eu" class="">cw@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] The WT5 meeting in San Juan - CW comments</b><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">29 March 2018 at 09:16:19 GMT+2<br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">GREG SHATAN <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" class="">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Christopher Wilkinson <<a href="mailto:cw@christopherwilkinson.eu" class="">cw@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>><br class=""></span></div><br class=""><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">Good morning:</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">Allow me to respond briefly to Greg
Shatan's comments, which evidently reflect his long experience with
these matters:</p>
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">I think that the reference to <a href="https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3071.txt" class="">RFC
3071</a> is not particularly helpful at this stage. At that time, 17
years ago, John Klensin submitted this 'informational' text as
'reflexions' in his 'personal capacity'. In the interim, ICANN has
taken several decisions which - for better or worse – depart from
the advice of RFC 3071. We have move on.<br class="">
</p>
</li><li class=""><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">Granted that there are sometimes
several meanings for certain words in English, and probably in other
languages as well, but this fact does not justify ignoring relevant
prior rights, not least for brands and geographical names. Bearing
in mind that the latter have usually been present long before the former’s associated usage of the same same string.<br class=""><br class="">In any event,
ICANN would, as before, have to deal with potential conflicts
between strings with more than one meaning, including several
geographical names among themselves. Meanwhile, a significant
proportion of geographical names do not experience multiple uses –
even in English.<br class=""><br class="">I am sure that the question of multiple uses
can be resolved and need not become a 'driver' of the eventual
policy for geographical names.<br class="">
</p>
</li><li class=""><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">Regarding GNSO and gTLDs, it is
indeed instructive to learn that all sorts of 'purpose specific'
TLDs have been subsumed into the G* concept within GNSO.<br class=""><br class="">For
present purposes, so be it.<br class=""><br class="">But in that case, I would also
argue - by analogy with brands – that geographical names should
benefit from protection in the interest of predictability and
transparency for individual users, in the locations, economies and
communities concerned.</p></li></ol><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">Regards to you all</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in" class="">CW</p><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">2018-03-26 6:54 GMT+01:00 Greg Shatan <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">With regard to point 3 ("Geographical names are not Generic in the usual semantic or, indeed, ICANN sense. Nearly all of those names are specific to places, cultures, regions, communities and their local economies. The fact that GNSO has taken the lead in the PDP WT5, does not diminish in any way the specific characteristics of geo-names."):</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We should avoid getting drawn into a policy conflict disguised as a semantic argument. The term "generic" as used in "generic TLDs" has long since departed from any "semantic" meaning of generic. Even as far back as 2001, RFC 3071 recognized that "generic" was ambiguous when applied to gTLDs, whic could be "generic" as in "purpose neutral" or "unbranded and open for use in any way" or "generic" as in "purpose-specific" or "related to a particular genus of registrants." As a result of the 2012 New gTLD round, we now have hundreds of gTLDs that are .Brands. Brands are conceptually and semantically the opposite of generic. We have dozens of TLDs being used as "geo-names." We also have many that are "purpose specific" and many that are open to use by all without any type of "genus" implied or expressed. I'm sure there are other types and distinctions to be made, but ultimately these are all gTLDs. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The same word or string can have multiple meanings. In numerous cases, the same string could be delegated and used as a generic, purpose-specific, .Brand or geo-name gTLD, depending on the applicant's plans. We need to be conservative with the idea that a string or word is inherently one thing or another. For instance, "tours" could be a .brand, a geo-name, a purpose-specific gTLD or even a purpose-neutral gTLD.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The GNSO's role here is not one where it has "taken the lead" as a free-floating "fact" but one where it has that responsibility as a matter of ICANN policy.
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline" class="">In that vein, this is not "PDP WT5"; this is a "work track" within a GNSO Policy Development Process Working Group. </span>The GNSO is a task-based entity, with that task being to manage the process of developing the policy recommendations for gTLDs. Anyone can participate in that process. It is irrelevant whether they are a member of (or a stakeholder represented by) any GNSO Stakeholder Group or Constituency.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">That is not to say this is the only possible way in which ICANN could have been or could be constituted. Before there was a GNSO and a ccNSO, there was a DNSO, which "advise[d] the ICANN Board on policy issues relating to the domain name system (DNS) -- the system of names commonly used to identify Internet locations and resources." Some body could decide to re-imagine this structure yet -- reconsider what is a gTLD and what is a ccTLD (perhaps based on use and purpose than on the ISO 3166 two-letter list), and whether other categories should be recognized aside from these two. But this body is not that body. And this body has enough complexities and distractions to complicate and delay our work without getting into existential debates -- especially those that are firmly outside our remit.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">It might be interesting to establish an unchartered discussion group to have those existential debates. However, it is the farthest thing from interesting (not to mention, productive) to turn this Work Track into that discussion group. I strongly encourage us not to get drawn down that rabbit-hole, which is in fact a rabbit-warren with a multitude of holes.</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></font></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><div class="h5">On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:14 PM, Javier Rua <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:javrua@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">javrua@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=""><div class="h5"><div dir="auto" class="">Thanks Christopher.<br class=""><br class=""><div id="m_3737557629552838682m_1750321307157605231AppleMailSignature" class="">Javier Rúa-Jovet<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" class=""><a href="tel:(787)%20396-6511" value="+17873966511" target="_blank" class="">+1-787-396-6511</a></span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" class="">twitter: @javrua</span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" class="">skype: javier.rua1</span></div><div class=""><font style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" class=""><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua" style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" target="_blank" class="">https://www.linkedin.com/in/ja<wbr class="">vrua</a> </font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><span class=""><div class=""><br class="">On Mar 25, 2018, at 3:12 PM, "<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu" target="_blank" class="">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><wbr class="">" <<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu" target="_blank" class="">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><wbr class="">> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">Dear WT5 Participants:</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">Further to the Wt5 meeting in San Juan on 14 March, this is just to recall the main points that I made during that discussion.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">1. For the new gTLD PDP to move forward with a reasonable delay, we need a new geo-TLD policy now. It would not be a good idea to wait for, or to out-source to other external entities, although in due course, external contributions may become relevant.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">2. I suggested that WT5 would save time by discontinuing discussion about ISO 3166. That is an international standard for codes and names representing countries and their subdivisions. As such, it is a well codified sub-set of the generality of geographical names. The bottom line is that within the scope of ISO 3166, ICANN is bound to respect the international standard.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">3. It is also not advisable to pursue the idea that the 2012 Applicant Guide Book (AGB) definition of geo-names is a relevant ‘default’. That text failed to address several classes of names that are of significant interest to user communities, a lacunae which gave rise to several disagreements and delays last time around. That should be corrected for the next round, as unambiguously as possible, in the interests of transparency and predictability for the individual users in the locations concerned. </span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">In that context, I regret that the WT5 Terms of Reference do not address those issues explicitly. They will now have to be addressed by WT5.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">3. Geographical names are not Generic in the usual semantic or, indeed, ICANN sense. Nearly all of those names are specific to places, cultures, regions, communities and their local economies.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">The fact that GNSO has taken the lead in the PDP WT5, does not diminish in any way the specific characteristics of geo-names.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">The approach to geographical names requires a tailored approach to the evaluation and implementation of such applications, to which I shall return in due course as the WT5 agenda evolves.</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">Regards</span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="">Christopher Wilkinson</span><br class=""></blockquote><span class=""></span><br class=""><span class="">PS: Resending, because the original message was sent from a non-WT5 registered address. Apologies for any duplication.</span></div></blockquote></span></div><br class=""></div></div><span class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
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