[EURO-Discuss] At-Large Advisory Committee Election Results

Nick Ashton-Hart nashton at spamcop.net
Tue Dec 12 09:05:47 CST 2006


To reiterate, in case anyone missed it the first time around:

The General Counsel's advice has been sought and provided: There is no
problem with Vittorio remaining as board liaison whether or not he
retains an ALAC member seat.

This is also true of the other liaison positions.

On 12/12/06, Roberto Gaetano <roberto at icann.org> wrote:
> Jeannette,
>
> I am sorry to say, but you are completely off the mark.
>
> ICANN has nothing to do in all this. ICANN gives some general rules for
> self-organizing of constituencies, committees, and associated bodies. But
> then (and this is what is called "bottom-up" process) it gives some latitude
> in implementing it.
> I would be appalled in seeing ICANN board setting rules for the IP
> constituency. Or the NCUC. Why then for ALAC?
> Why, all of a sudden, we call on ICANN to set rules on how ALAC appoints its
> Boar Liaison?
>
> The problem is completely a different one. And it has to do with funding. It
> is obvious to whoever would look at things abstracting from names, and
> looking at functions, that all what we are talking about is if ICANN would
> pay for a Board Liaison "on top" of the regular 15 members of the committee.
> It is obvious to whoever has done any one negotiation that if you state the
> problem up front, the answer from the (General Counsel of the) "counterpart"
> is extremely unlikely to be something like "Oh, yes, actually, why not even
> more than just one".
>
> Anyway, Vittorio has been elected as ALAC Liaison to the Board, by ALAC
> plenary, who is, according to the Bylaws, the body who is responsible for
> the election. He is currently an ALAC member, and this should close the
> question until EURALO is formed. All clear, and compliant to the Bylaws.
> About additional alternate candidates, that are not members of ALAC, I
> personally cannot see how some person from outside the Committee could have
> the trust of ALAC and won an election against two strong and long time
> members like Vittorio and Wendy.
> In simple terms, we should not make confusion between somebody that has long
> membership, and the membership terminates, and a person coming from the
> outside, no matter how involved in other user-related organizations.
>
> My "no waves approach" is a suggestion to ALAC for the future. Whether you
> take it, and gain results, or you reject it, and stay put, is your choice.
> If Vittorio's term as ALAC ends before his term as Liaison, you have the
> choice. I see three possibilities:
> - insist that he remains Liaison, and get the implicit right of having
> additional funding;
> - declare him ceased, go to new elections, create a precedent and lose
> forever the right of having additional funding;
> - replace him with a different person, also outside ALAC, and claim that if
> the rules allow an outside person, elections should be open to non-member
> candidates (which seems to be your point)
>
> The question is, how are you going to motivate that you go to option 3,
> instead of 2? ICANN's reply will be, obviously, that you are welcome to go
> to option 2, and you can forget forever about option 3 (and 1, for that
> matter).
>
> On one thing I agree with you, this is not a perfect world.
> Maybe where we differ is on how to change it.
>
> Best regards,
> Roberto
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeanette Hofmann [mailto:jeanette at wz-berlin.de]
> > Sent: 08 December 2006 11:49
> > To: Discussion for At-Large Europe; roberto at icann.org
> > Subject: Re: [EURO-Discuss] At-Large Advisory Committee
> > Election Results
> >
> >
> >
> > Roberto Gaetano schrieb:
> > > I don't think that this was the situation "by design", but rather a
> > > side effect on how the bylaws are written.
> >
> > Hi Roberto,
> >
> > this is the problem with ICANN as I see it since I watch its
> > performance. There are always honorable reasons for
> > maintaining ambiguous practices or stretching rules. But from
> > the outside, such practices look somewhat fishy.
> >
> > In order to grow up and to gain the trust ICANN needs to do
> > its work, it is really, really necessary that ICANN
> > establishes an equivalent to the rule of law, an equivalent
> > that provides for reliable procedures and predictable decisions.
> >
> > Your small steps, no big waves approach makes sense from an
> > insider's perpective but from outside, it looks like more of
> > the same muddling through approach that seems so
> > characterstic for many of ICANN's decisions.
> >
> > I know, I am repeating myself, I said the very same thing on
> > another list a few days ago: ICANN needs to constitutionlize
> > itself, its actions need to follow self binding rules that
> > people know and that people can appeal to if they are
> > supposedly violated. ALAC should not be an exception to this
> > but rather a model for other constiuencies or groups in ICANN.
> >
> > jeanette
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > We are getting there with small steps, not to create too big waves.
> > > We did it with Bret as GTLD Liaison, in the moment when we
> > were also
> > > replacing another NA member (John Levine was selected).
> > > We are trying this with Vittorio, as the situation is now that it
> > > would take an active step by the Board to discontinue him after his
> > > expiration as ALAC member, and I don't think that the Board
> > will ever open this can of worms.
> > > Then we will much better off for claiming it as established
> > practice.
> > > This is, at least, my approach. Sorry for being more
> > careful than some
> > > of you would like, but I have the impression that this strategy has
> > > paid off, up to now. Also, I do believe that one thing is a
> > proposal
> > > for candidature that comes from an ALS, and another thing,
> > with more
> > > weight, will be a candidature that comes from a established RALO.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Roberto
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: euro-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >> [mailto:euro-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of
> > >> Jeanette Hofmann
> > >> Sent: 08 December 2006 10:03
> > >> To: Discussion for At-Large Europe
> > >> Subject: Re: [EURO-Discuss] At-Large Advisory Committee Election
> > >> Results
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Roberto Gaetano schrieb:
> > >>> Two additions to the comprehensive explanation by Vittorio.
> > >>>
> > >>> There is nothing that prevents Vittorio to continue as
> > >> Board Liaison
> > >>> even if he terminates as ALAC member. Quite the contrary,
> > >> this is an
> > >>> advantage, as we will have the possibility to cover this
> > >> task without
> > >>> impacting on the other activities, that will be carried on by the
> > >>> regular members. It was already the case for Bret as GTLD Liaison.
> > >> Now, this is interesting. Anybody can be nominated or run for the
> > >> position as board liaison? If this is indeed the case, you
> > might have
> > >> got a long list of candidates if this had been known to
> > more people.
> > >>
> > >> jeanette
> > >>
> > >>> In the future, ALSes and RALOs will be able to influence also the
> > >>> internal mechanisms, if they discuss the matter in
> > advance and via
> > >>> their two representatives can bring motions to the ALAC.
> > >> This, based
> > >>> on what is discussed above, might include candidatures to Liaison
> > >>> positions (but not Chair or Vice Chair positions).
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Roberto
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: euro-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org
> > >>>> [mailto:euro-discuss-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > >>>> Vittorio Bertola
> > >>>> Sent: 08 December 2006 09:19
> > >>>> To: patrick at isoc.lu; Discussion for At-Large Europe
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [EURO-Discuss] At-Large Advisory Committee Election
> > >>>> Results
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Patrick Vande Walle ha scritto:
> > >>>>> A few days ago, it was explained on this list that the
> > >> nomcom chair
> > >>>>> would suggest a name for the ALAC liaison. Now we see
> > >> that the ALAC
> > >>>>> actually had a vote. Who decided that and when ? Who voted
> > >>>> in favour
> > >>>>> on this change ? who voted against ?
> > >>>> I think that there is a misunderstanding. The message that
> > >> was sent
> > >>>> some time ago was about appointing one new ALAC member
> > >> representing
> > >>>> EURALO, since Annette, who was previously sitting in one
> > >> of the two
> > >>>> EURALO seats, decided to apply for Roberto's seat - the one
> > >>>> representing ICANN and appointed by the ICANN Nomcom - and
> > >> the Nomcom
> > >>>> picked her. Thus, this frees up one of the two EURALO
> > >> seats, which,
> > >>>> until we formally incorporate EURALO and sign an MoU with
> > >> ICANN, is
> > >>>> to be filled by the ICANN Board. As soon as we sign that
> > MoU, the
> > >>>> ICANN-Board-appointed ALAC members (they being me and
> > whoever will
> > >>>> get appointed in place of Annette in the next few weeks)
> > >> will expire,
> > >>>> and EURALO will have to appoint two representatives in the ALAC.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The ICANN Board, however, usually asks for advice before
> > >> making the
> > >>>> appointment; initially, since this is going to be a short-lived
> > >>>> appointment - we hope to finalize the EURALO process by
> > the ICANN
> > >>>> Lisbon meeting, next March - Roberto and I suggested
> > that we could
> > >>>> ask the Nomcom to provide another name, which would have
> > >> allowed the
> > >>>> Board to make a very quick appointment, and thus to bring the
> > >>>> appointed person here in Sao Paulo for this ICANN meeting.
> > >> However,
> > >>>> there was another proposal that the three European ALAC
> > >> members pick
> > >>>> someone instead. I strongly disagree on that, because I
> > >> think that if
> > >>>> we don't go for a quick appointment, then it should be the
> > >> ALSes who
> > >>>> suggest someone, also because it might be someone that the ALSes
> > >>>> might want to reappoint after we sign the MoU in March
> > >> (though there
> > >>>> is absolutely no constraint to that effect). So we discussed the
> > >>>> matter here in Sao Paulo, and all the three European
> > ALAC members
> > >>>> agreed to make a call to the European ALSes to suggest
> > one or more
> > >>>> names, to be then discussed and forwarded to the ICANN Board for
> > >>>> consideration; Annette is supposed to post that call shortly.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In any case, please all of you start considering and
> > >> posting possible
> > >>>> nominees (or self-nominations) as temporary European
> > ALAC member,
> > >>>> even if it might be just for a few months and for one
> > >> ICANN meeting
> > >>>> in Lisbon. Also, I want to make it clear that I will not
> > >> reapply for
> > >>>> my seat, I think that four years is enough and I really
> > >> want some new
> > >>>> people from this group to be able to serve on the ALAC (I
> > >> said this
> > >>>> in public before being appointed as ALAC Board liaison, so
> > >> it's not
> > >>>> connected to that).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The message that Nick sent yesterday, instead, was about
> > >> the internal
> > >>>> ALAC appointments: the ALAC, as any Committee, has to
> > appoint its
> > >>>> Chair, Vice Chairs, and also a number of liaisons to
> > other bodies.
> > >>>> These positions are to be filled internally by the ALAC, as they
> > >>>> represent the distribution of labour among its members. In this
> > >>>> specific case, there was no established procedure, and even no
> > >>>> advance knowledge of all the nominations, so it was actually
> > >>>> impossible to have any further consultation - it was all decided
> > >>>> yesterday at an open meeting of the ALAC. I still see it a bit
> > >>>> difficult to imagine that these positions can be filled by
> > >> a broader
> > >>>> group than the ALAC itself, since they are really connected to
> > >>>> internal balances in a 15-people group that has to work
> > >> together, but
> > >>>> I already suggested that the ALAC should have better
> > >> procedures for
> > >>>> these appointments, which could allow sufficient time to have a
> > >>>> consultation with the RALOs about the various nominees.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ciao,
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> vb.             [Vittorio Bertola - v.bertola [a]
> > >>>> bertola.eu.org]<-----
> > >>>> http://bertola.eu.org/  <- Prima o poi...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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-- 
-- 
Regards,

Nick Ashton-Hart
PO Box 32160
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