[At-Large] Review of the DNS Root Server Advisory Committee

Fri Feb 27 12:12:00 EST 2009

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:54 PM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 3:49 AM, Joe Baptista <baptista at publicroot.org>
> wrote:
> > People please - stop with the bull shit.  This has been covered time and
> > time again.  The root server operators are a clan of 13 root operators
> who I
> > like to call the 113 ugly root sisters.
>
> Now THIS is BS!

the 113 is a type.  its 13 root operators.  Whats the bull shit in that.
What do you mean.  Or do you not have an argument to support your claim?

>
>
>  They perform a voluntary service to
> > the united states government
>
> To Internet Users actually.

NO.  The service thats performed is to the U.S. government through IANA.
Thats the historical origin of the 13 ugly sisters.

>
>
>  - but have no contracts with any branch of the
> > united states government.
>
> Except of course, for NASA, DOD, etc.

Yes - the two U.S. roots.  Again - no contracts exist, except for a few.  I
understand Vixie has one with ICANN now.  But generally there are no
contracts.  Many of these organizations have a long history with the U.S.
government and there have been contracts on other matters that have
benefited them financially in one way or another.

Can you provide any URLs: to contracts?

>
>
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > In any case there just 13 fellows who we can consider the gods of the
> > Internet.
>
> Oh please this is the thickest BS ever.

Why.  If they turned off their root servers tomorrow the world would known
quickly enough.  Even if one of the 13 root server sisters rebel and publish
data that is not RFC 2826 compliant they would still be able to capture a
large market segment of user traffic.  And in the worse case - technically
speaking one root can crash the internetwork or poison the cache in the name
of marketing.

Roots have a lot of power.  Thats why I call them gods - small "g" gods that
is.  There is a lot of power in being at the root of the internet.  In short
the trust you put into the root depends on if you trust the 13 ugly
sisters.  I don't.  ICANN is having a show down with the U.S. government
this year and the issue will come down to one single matter.  What roots are
loyal to the U.S. government and which ones end up in the ICANN ranks.

Incidentally I include in the 13 Bill Manning.  Even though he no longer
runs a root he still gets a lot of legacy root traffic from resolvers with
the original bind hard coded legacy cache.   That gives Bill Manning a lot
of power.

>
>
>
> >  What they see the users of the Internet sees.
>
> as it should be.

But its not anymore is it?  There are many roots currently in operation
world wide today including the Arabic and China National TLD systems.  Thats
well over 40% drop in market share.  China now see a different internet
(root) and so does some of the middle east.

However this lose in market share is more a reflection on ICANNs failures
and not that of root operators.

>
> >
> > They as a group are ultimately the people who run the Internet - not
> ICANN.
>
> smelly BS, as you know, no one entity or group "runs" the Internet.

Correct.  But they are the single point of failure - they are the DNS gods.
Internet users trust them as the root of any transaction initiated by our
systems.  Thats a lot of power.

>
>
> > They are not in any way accountable to anyone.
>
> They all have shareholders/Boards of Directors/other stakeholders that
> they are accountable to.

I'm sure they do.  I'm sure some of them have stakeholders galore.  But
thats not the issue - the issue is can they be trusted and are they
accountable to me - the internet user?  I don't think they are accountable
to anyone but themselves and I don't trust them.  Some of you may disagree
with me.

In any case my point is made - from a technical point of view and
specifically from the perspective of the DNS - the 13 ugly root sisters in
fact control the Infrastructure that ICANN pretends to run.

>
>
>   I think a handful have
> > contracts with ICANN.  Most do not.  So they are not accountable to
> anyone.
>
> as above, most may not be accountable to ICANN, but if they were, you
> and your fellow ICANN haters would, no doubt, object strenuously to
> such an arrangement.

This discussion has nothing to do with ICANN haters.  It is simply to
acknowledge the facts and move on.  The problem I find with discussions here
that that there are so many people who have no understanding of the history
or control points in the DNS.

I thank you for acknowledging the fact that most root operators are not
accountable to ICANN.  I agree and I support that.  They are accountable to
the U.S. Government.   And that is where - I would hope, if they are
honorable people - they would be accountable to.

Let us not forget that the roots were put in place to satisfy a DARPA or
ARPA contracts - irrespective of the fact that they were volunteers.
Remember all these people were involved from the beginning of the creation
of the Internet.  They were a small community - a small team.  No one at the
time considered contracts or the legalities involved in root service.

So I would hope that as the internet's legacy founding roots these operators
will remain loyal to the party responsible for the root - being the U.S.
Government.

But I suspect not all will be loyal.

> >
> > If the 13 ugly root sisters chose to elope and leave ICANN then ICANN is
> > finished.
>
> rubbish.

You obviously don't know the history here.  Its possible they will.  They
have eloped in the past.  Are you forgetting the time Jon Postel and Paul
Vixie high jacked the root.  The MIBH paid them a visit.  They switched the
root back to A.root-servers - and the incident was explained off as an
unauthorized experiment.

So its not rubbish.  Its a concern with a history.

cheers
joe baptista

>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
>
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-- 
Joe Baptista
www.publicroot.org
PublicRoot Consortium
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