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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 07 April 2016 11:46 PM,
Seth M Reiss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:004c01d190f9$8c5e9400$a51bbc00$@reiss@lex-ip.com"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Two
observations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> What
is to stop a non-US court from taking a similar enforcement
action against a registrar within that country and seizing
domains? <br>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
None.... Any company is in any case subject to the jurisdiction of
its incorporation.... So, what you are saying IMHO is completely
besides the point. The issue that I am framing is 'why should a
company that intended to do and have no business with the US be
subject to US enforcement action?'<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:004c01d190f9$8c5e9400$a51bbc00$@reiss@lex-ip.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
Non-US courts have been known to take jurisdiction over
business outside their countries based upon the business’s
goods and services being accessible within the country
through the Internet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cannot
the non-US business that conducts itself legally within the
laws of its country register its domains with a non-US
registrar?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Right.... So you are inter alia saying/ accepting that if a business
really wants to avoid being subject to US jurisdiction, which it has
a right to, it should never apply for and get a gTLD for itself.....
Because gTLDs are directly registered with ICANN, a US based
corporation, subject fully to US jurisdiction...<br>
<br>
It is such a pity that we can are ready to accept such a situation -
for a non US business, if it has to avoid extraterritorial
application of US jurisdiction, it should avoid taking a gTLD for
itself... Or, to put it other way, the facility of getting a gTLD
gets closed to that business...<br>
<br>
I dont think this is any way to run a global governance
establishment, and to run a group - ALAC - that is supposed to make
such an establishment more fair and democratic for all..<br>
<br>
This is quite a self damning admission...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:004c01d190f9$8c5e9400$a51bbc00$@reiss@lex-ip.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
do not deny there is an uneven playing field because ICANN
is more easily subject to US jurisdiction and law than the
jurisdictions and laws of other countries, but your
arguments may go too far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Seth<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org">at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org">mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 07, 2016 6:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> McTim<br>
<b>Cc:</b> At-Large Worldwide<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [At-Large] R: R: Is ICANN's
oversight really moving away from the US government?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">McTim
/ All<br>
<br>
(Sorry for the delay in the response. I was travelling.)<br>
<br>
So, you say that the problem is only in my head, and we can
safely ignore all that I am proposing as a problem! Let me
then produce some clear evidence of the problem, and see how
you respond to it.<br>
<br>
You of course know that US authorities have been using US
based registries to frequently seize domains, for all kinds
of reasons. Dont tell me you dont! The first famous case was
when the domain of a travel site based in an European
country was seized for offering holidays in Cuba to a
customer in another European country, because US entities
are banned from commercial transactions with Cuba. Note that
the transaction had nothing at all to do with anything US.
But US authorities used the US registration of the registry<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://arstechnica.com/business/2008/03/us-interferes-with-travel-to-cuba/">
to seize the website nonetheless</a>. <br>
<br>
Next <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110201/10252412910/homeland-security-seizes-spanish-domain-name-that-had-already-been-declared-legal.shtml">famous
case was of the Spanish sports streaming website
Rojadirecta</a> whose legality had been tested in Spanish
courts and it had been declared legal... But that mattered
two hoots to US government agencies which used its US
registration to seize it....<br>
<br>
Later has been <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.easydns.org/2012/02/29/verisign-seizes-com-domain-registered-via-foreign-registrar-on-behalf-of-us-authorities/">this
case of a Canadian gambling site</a> being seized
similarly by US agencies. Earlier, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cnet.com/news/swiss-bank-in-wikileaks-case-abruptly-abandons-lawsuit/">wikileaks
website had got seized</a>. <br>
<br>
There have been many more cases of <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.thedomains.com/2010/07/01/feds-seize-9-domains-for-copyright-infringement-but-based-on-what-law/">such
domain name seizures by US authorities</a>, quite often
when the focus of the concerned companies was non US.
Interesting, there have been court orders which <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/millions-of-dymanic-dns-users-suffer-after-microsoft-seizes-no-ip-domains/">transferred
control over domain names of businesses to other, US,
companies</a>. <br>
<br>
All such legal enforcement by US agencies ( courts as well
as executive agencies) has been got done through exercise
of jurisdiction over US based registries, mostly Verisign
controlling .com.<br>
<br>
Lets now move on to the times of thousands of gTLDs, made
possible by the new gTLDs rounds, and every big business
encouraged to, at least legitimately entitled to, have its
own gTLD.<br>
<br>
What if the above non US companies, or similar ones like
them, now take on gTLDs of their own, which they have a
right to. What is the option now for US agencies if they
mean to pursue similar enforcement acts as they did earlier.
And there simply is no reason why they wont. Now, get this
one thing clearly - for an US agency, there is absolutely no
difference at all between a Verisign controlling .com
registrations or an ICANN controlling gTLDs. *They are the
same for them, US registered private entities, subject fully
to US jurisdiction.*<br>
<br>
When they want, US agencies (courts and executive agencies)
will similarly order ICANN, like they did earlier to
Verisign, to take down the 'offending' gTLDs.... The logic
is clear and simple, and irrefutable. Can anyone argue why
and how they would not.... And that precisely is the problem
that I have been positing, taking the very likely example of
an Indian generic drug company, with a gTLD, falling foul of
the US pharma industry's high Intellectual property
aspirations and standards (which are not global). <br>
<br>
So, in the circumstances, the option for non US businesses
is one of the two<br>
<br>
1. They keep strictly on the right side of US law, even when
their business does not have anything to do with the US.
This amounts to a global enforcement of one country's law
and jurisdiction, covering all kinds of areas. This is
highly undemocratic, and not should not be acceptable to non
US entities. <br>
<br>
2. Non US companies play safe and do not take up new gTLDs.
This amounts to a virtual denial of a key DNS service to non
US companies. Which should be almost equally unacceptable. <br>
<br>
What is your response to this situation... If this is not a
real problem for an organisation whose main task is to
provide DNS services to the world, I dont see what would be
a problem for it. And if this is not an issue for ALAC to
address, whose main purpose should be to the serve the
interests of more the peripheral groups on DNS related
issues, I dont know what would be?<br>
<br>
Since I have put forth clear evidence and propositions
logically ensuing from such evidence, I will very much
appreciate clear and direct responses, to the issues I raise
and the 'problem' I frame.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tuesday 29 March 2016 08:53 PM, McTim
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 9:26 AM,
parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
What amazes me in all the responses I am getting
is that no one is either saying that the problem I
have posed does not exist or it is not important
to resolve, nor providing any alternative ways to
resolve it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">They
are just arguing with parts of my proposal,
which is fine, although I think, while no doubt
this is a somewhat complex solution to a complex
problem, no one has been able to show why it
really cant work. <br>
<br>
To remind; the problem I had posed was about the
very likely wrongful US's jurisdictional
imposition on ICANN's process and vis a vis the
root server maintainer. I had given a concrete
example; of a US court pushing the well-known
over-zealous US intellectual property law and
enforcement to take away the gTLD of an Indian
generic drug manufacturer even when the latter
has no direct business interests or activities
in the US... What is your response to such a
very likely occurrence? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is highly unlikely, the
likelihood approaching zero IMHO.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Should
we simply ignore it?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">yes, it is safe to do so.
However, you must realise that after the IANA
transition is finished, there will be absolutely
zero appetite inside ICANN to make major reforms. I
doubt you could get that Community to even consider
such a proposal. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Or,
do you not think it likely, in which case lets
discuss that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If we must. Let's say that your
scenario comes to pass. You do realise that ICANN
would use the hundreds of millions of dollars in its
legal kitty to fight such a court order, right? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">....
You cannot simply not respond to this key global
governance problem that stares us in the face...
(Apart from it, is the less likely but still to
be remained prepared for possibility of the The
Office of Foreign Assets Control of the US
playing hanky panky with the gTLD of a country</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">countries don't have gTLDs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">that
the US gets into serious enmity with.... every
country likes to remain prepared for such an
eventuality. You cannot deny them that right.
)...<br>
<br>
No one seems to want to address these key global
governance problems. Do they not exist? If they
do, then what is your response to and
preparedness for these? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">They are not key. They exist as
a problem largely in your head. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates
where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon
Postel<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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