[At-Large] [lac-discuss-en] Vistaprint is abandoning .vista

Karl Auerbach karl at cavebear.com
Sat Jul 14 17:24:32 UTC 2018


Thanks for the the compliment.

Here's a pointer to that note:

https://www.cavebear.com/archive/rw/igf-democracy-in-internet-governance.pdf

However, among all of the things that I've written about internet 
governance I believe that the following is the most important:

First Law of the Internet
https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html

+ Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way that
   is privately beneficial without being publicly detrimental.

    - The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall be on those
      who wish to prevent the private use.

        - Such a demonstration shall require clear and convincing
          evidence of public detriment.

    - The public detriment must be of such degree and extent as
      to justify the suppression of the private activity.


             --karl--


On 7/14/18 7:50 AM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
> So happy to see you in this conversation Karl.
>
> For those who don't know Karl Auerbach, my first deep dive into the 
> ICANN phenomenon found me reading Karl Auerbach and Michael Froomkin. 
> Over the years since 2007, I've had several conversations with Karl on 
> numerous topics. Those interactions have always been illuminating and 
> thought-provoking.
>
> For those of you who might wish to deepen your understanding of the 
> ICANN phenomenon, I would also recommend Auerbach's paper 
> "Stakeholderism - The Wrong Road for Internet Governance".
>
> -Carlton
>
> ==============================
> /Carlton A Samuels/
> /Mobile: 876-818-1799
> Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/
> =============================
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 9:51 PM Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com 
> <mailto:karl at cavebear.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Carlton, you are as sane and clear eyed as you have always been. 
>     Yes,
>     ICANN quacks like a regulatory body and walks like a regulatory body.
>
>     (Which I guess means that ICANN is a duck?)
>
>     I agree with you that ICANN regulates - it controls, allocates,
>     revokes,
>     and levies fees.  It also shares some other attributes with
>     regulatory
>     bodies: It is effectively unavoidable and its decisions have ripples
>     that go far beyond those whose actions are directly shaped by the
>     body.
>
>     As Even L. pointed out ICANN may have legal reasons to try to fend
>     away
>     the word "regulator".  That's not surprising, but that kind of
>     wordplay
>     is approaching an exercise of Orwellian Newspeak.  And it's
>     nothing new
>     to ICANN: back in year 2000 they tried to label a thing that was
>     clearly
>     an "election" as something else called a "selection" in an attempt to
>     evade California laws regarding the obligations of non-profit/public
>     benefit corporations.
>
>     One has to wonder why are intelligent people so afraid to use a
>     description that so clearly applies?
>
>     Well, perhaps it is because there is fear of that word reviving a
>     long
>     unanswered question.
>
>     As you mention, ICANN shapes internet domain name policies and
>     economics, and even charges "fees" that everyone would agree would be
>     called "taxes" if levied by a governmental body.
>
>     A better way to put this is to say that ICANN restrains some trade
>     and
>     encourages other trade.  I used that former phrase because it
>     tends to
>     raise the question of "what provides ICANN with immunity from
>     anti-trust
>     laws"?
>
>     This paper from year 2003 still remains largely unanswered:
>     http://osaka.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/icann-antitrust.pdf
>     <http://osaka.law.miami.edu/%7Efroomkin/articles/icann-antitrust.pdf>
>
>     By-the-way, with regard to the vistaprint TLD and the discussion of
>     ICANN application fees - I went through the round a few years ago and
>     did the better part of 100 applications, with each being an almost
>     identical application with only a couple of pages of different
>     marketing
>     info.  Yet we got hit with the full $185,000 charge for each one of
>     those even though the review for each was essentially identical.  It
>     made me feel that as between ICANN and a highway robber saying "stand
>     and deliver" that the latter was less blameworthy.
>
>             --karl--
>
>
>
>     On 07/13/2018 05:44 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
>     > It really isn't a personal opinion; the facts are undeniable by
>     virtue
>     > of the admitted regulatory signs.
>     >
>     > It is in ICANN's power to gift a resource, set the requirements
>     by which
>     > one can be gifted, set the rules for use of resource, charge and
>     punish
>     > violations of the rules as appropriate and exact a fee for
>     gifting that
>     > resource.  Anywhere else in Christendom and the known sensate
>     world,
>     > those activities are the very definition of a regulator.
>     >
>     > ICANN has managed to convince itself and would wish to make
>     > accommodating idiots of the rest of us because it is politically
>     > difficult to do otherwise. I get the politics of it. But to ask
>     me to
>     > deny the evidence of my two lying eyes and what is plainly the
>     case in
>     > reason and judgment is a bridge too far. The Christian bible has
>     a line
>     > in it "in Christ all things are possible". I would add a caution
>     to that
>     > declaration:  Save and except to take me for an idiot.
>     >
>     > -Carlton
>     >
>     > ==============================
>     > /Carlton A Samuels/
>     > /Mobile: 876-818-1799
>     > Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/
>     > =============================
>     >
>     >
>     > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 4:13 PM Kan Kaili <kankaili at gmail.com
>     <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>
>     > <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com <mailto:kankaili at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     Indeed Goran has said "ICANN is not a regulator" many
>     times.  I have
>     >     heard him saying that myself.  However, this is something I
>     disagree
>     >     with him.
>     >
>     >     Again, in my personal opinion, as long as the positioning of
>     ICANN
>     >     stays blurry as it is now, the confusion will only
>     accumulate until
>     >     it creats a crisis.
>     >
>     >     Kaili
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     ----- Original Message -----
>     >     From: "Johan Helsingius" <julf at julf.com
>     <mailto:julf at julf.com> <mailto:julf at julf.com <mailto:julf at julf.com>>>
>     >     To: <at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>     <mailto:at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>     >     <mailto:at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>     <mailto:at-large at atlarge-lists.icann.org>>>
>     >     Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 8:33 PM
>     >     Subject: Re: [At-Large] [lac-discuss-en] Vistaprint is
>     abandoning .vista
>     >
>     >
>     >      > On 12-07-18 19:56, Kan Kaili wrote:
>     >      >> In my opinion, ICANN should play the role of a regulator.
>     >      >
>     >      > Our esteemed CEO, Göran Marby, has a number of phrases he
>     repeats
>     >      > fairly often. "ICANN is not a regulator" is one of them.
>     >      >
>     >      > Julf
>     >      >
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