[APAC-Discuss] APRALO Application for new ALS and Individual Applications

[Satish Babu]

Hi Pavan,

I think we can go ahead and recommend to ALAC that we admit YODET.





satish


On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Pavan Budhrani * <pavan at namesphere.asia>
wrote:

> Dear all, for the 2 questions, they have replied.
> YODET indeed allows institutional membership; some of the initiatives have
> already become members.
>
> As for individual members, leadership positions are accessible based on
> merit.
>
> Please let me know your decision and we can go ahead to the ALAC vote.
>
> Thanks
>
> Pavan Budhrani
>
> On 12/4/17 10:55 AM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
>
> At the moment, the status quo exists.. We certainly aren't asking staff to
> make any changes to what they are currently doing.
>
> The discussions we are having among the RALO at the moment relates to how
> we might do things differently if we had the chance to change things for
> the better in the future. There are lots of things that have to be sorted
> through.
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> "But how do we recognise the ones who do the work?"
>>
>> At the moment, and for the reasonable future, all we need to do is ask
>> those who claim to be part of At-Large what their affiliation is. I think
>> this is a reason able thing to task At-Large Staff with.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> At 03/12/2017 08:08 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alan
>>
>> Exactly..  You are correct that we don't currently have these rules in
>> APRALO at the moment.. However, APRALO is continuing a conversation we
>> started in Abu Dhabi about how to engage our ALSes and individual members
>> better, but also acknowledging those who are doing the work, rather than
>> those who have official titles and don't do anything.
>>
>> But how do we recognise the ones who do the work?
>>
>> I plan to call a formal meeting of an APRALO working group, to formalise
>> some of the ideas we are proposing in this conversation, which we will
>> propose to the wider At-Large working group later on.
>>
>> M.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
>> > wrote:
>> "But if these designated personnel do not actively participate then the
>> ALS can be deregistered. But what if there are other individual members of
>> the ALS who do participate - but they are NOT the contacts. Our
>> registration procedures do not actually stipulate what should happen."
>>
>> Maureen, unless you have such a rule in APRALO (and I could not find one
>> on a quick review), that is not necessarily true. The representatives are
>> just that, representatives. They are the ones to take formal action on
>> behalf of the ALS (such as vote if and when there are votes). An ALS judged
>> to be active can be because other members of the ALS are active in At-Large
>> and ICANN processes.
>>
>> Of course the problem is that right now is that we have no practical way
>> of automatically recognizing this - it relies on self-declaration  or one
>> of us "knowing" which ALS a person is associated with.
>>
>> A;an
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 03/12/2017 08:40 AM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
>>
>> I understand what you are saying, Jahangir.  An ALS's bylaws about their
>> leadership structure is a valid point but it is separate from the At-Large
>> participation issue..
>>
>> ICANN is obliged to accept the names of the first and second contact of
>> the ALS as they are given to us when an ALS is registered because that is
>> our (ALAC's) current policy. But if these designated personnel do not
>> actively participate then the ALS can be deregistered.  But what if there
>> are other individual members of the ALS who do participate - but they are
>> NOT the contacts. Our registration procedures do not actually stipulate
>> what should happen.
>>
>> However, what the ALAC has been talking about is that when it comes to
>> inviting people to events, like the ATLASIII in 2019 (or whenever), we are
>> considering the use of metrics, so that only those individuals who are
>> already actively engaged, will be invited even if they are not the
>> designated first and second contacts that were assigned by the ALS
>> management, and who, in some ALS cases, never turned up to any meetings.
>>
>> The ATLAS will discuss policy, so we would like to have people
>> participating in the discussions who actually know about the important
>> ICANN issues and can contribute.
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:12 AM, Jahangir Hossain <jrjahangir at gmail.com>
>> wrote: Hi Maureen ,
>> I have bellow comment about the below point ;
>> So maybe, once an ALS is registered, then we simply deal with those
>> members who are interested and active whom we will be able to identify via
>> our metrics and establish as the first and second contacts for any
>> communications. .
>>
>> Comments : Every ALS have own bylaw to run the organization . Members of
>> ALS select their EC/ Board members by following their bylaw who are the
>> valid key contact person for any communication . So if you proposed to
>> select first and second contacts from interested person via metrics for any
>> communications, this should not be represented the organization ALS . This
>> is because this selected person might not be elected from the ALS by
>> following their bylaw. So if we consider to represent the organization ALS
>> then we should respect the  ALS's bylaw for this issue .
>>
>>
>> Regards / Jahangir
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj at gmail.com>
>> wrote: Hi Satish, Regarding to point 4. "4. The current rules on not
>> admitting existing ALS members as individual members to APRALO is based on
>> the potential to weaken ALSes. It's perhaps time that these rules are
>> reviewed at both ALAC and RALO levels...however, this is not a decision to
>> be taken lightly."
>> Many of the ALSes are run by a leadership team who may have no activities
>> to engage their ordinary members.  Here I come back to the discussion
>> point on what is the criteria of making sure that a certified ALS is an
>> active ALS as they are expected to perform certain activities related to
>> ICANN that comply to RALO requirements in engaging both their own community
>> and their wider community? If the said ALS don't do that then a potential
>> good members of such ALS will be of disadvantage.  Then if this potential
>> member applied to be as individual member in APRALO if they already active
>> in ICANN WGs, are  RALOs ready to accept their application? This leads
>> to the importance of documentation by ALS activities on regular or even
>> annual basis on their wiki space as part of basic requirements to ALS. Not
>> satisfying this basic requirement hints to their lack of seriousness.
>> Best, Nadira
>>
>>
>> On Dec 3, 2017 08:56, "Satish Babu" <sb at inapp.com> wrote: There are
>> several considerations that we have to be mindful of, vis-a-vis individual
>> members, particularly after the recent At-Large Review:
>> 1. RALOs should encourage individual members to participate in policy
>> processes in RALOs and At-Large.
>> 2. For this, we need to ensure that individuals have low entry barriers
>> (ie., a light-weight admission process) compared to ALSes
>> 3. The current admission process for individual members ("Trust" and not
>> "Trust-but-verify") is based on keeping entry barriers low, but also
>> because we often have no other means of verification
>> 4. The current rules on not admitting existing ALS members as individual
>> members to APRALO is based on the potential to weaken ALSes. It's perhaps
>> time that these rules are reviewed at both ALAC and RALO levels...however,
>> this is not a decision to be taken lightly.
>> We are in the early phase of inducting individual members. We have to
>> learn as we go and fine-tune our rules.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> satish
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
>> > wrote:
>> All good questions.
>> I can even add another. Is there any harm in a person becoming an
>> individual member who is a member of an ALS, but is not active in that
>> ALS's activities with respect to being an ALS. That situation could have
>> applied to me - I was an individual member, but was also historically a
>> member of an ISOC Chapter, but only because I had ticked off a box on a web
>> form, not because I was active in it in any way. Would there have been any
>> harm in my continuing to be a "member" of that ALS?
>>
>> Ultimately, these are issues that either all RALOs must address, or
>> perhaps we will come up with a uniform cross-RALO criteria. An important
>> thing to keep in mind is that the overall target is to get people active in
>> ICANN processes.
>> Alan
>> At 03/12/2017 01:30 AM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
>>
>> But should we get individual members to sign a piece of paper that says
>> that they officially do not belong to an ALS?
>> This discussion is important as APRALO seeks to confirm acceptable
>> criteria for registration of our ALSes (and any individual members who
>> belong to it and want to join in our discussions), as well as those who are
>> individual members not affiliated to any organisation.
>> I like the example of our the Abu Dhabi representative of our individual
>> members - due to her own personal interest in the work of ICANN, Justine
>> was already an active member of a couple of working groups before she
>> became a formal individual member of APRALO. She was a known entity and we
>> have welcomed her participation in our discussions as a regional
>> participant in the same way as we accept the inputs of the individual
>> members who represent  the interests of their ALSes. In past discussions,
>> APRALO raised the point that individual members should already be actively
>> engaged before we register them. There has been poor commitment by some of
>> the individual members we currently have on our list  How do we deregister
>> them?
>> I can appreciate that sometimes people may not be able to participate in
>> an organisation that meets face to face normally at a time and place that
>> is not convenient for everyone... and this was the reason we encouraged
>> individual members. But leaving an ALS to become an individual member does
>> not make sense to me.
>> M .
>> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
>> > wrote:
>> One has to put these things in perspective and to examine the effort
>> involved vs the benefits and risks.
>> Looking at an unrelated issue, ICANN directors are subject to strict
>> conflict of interest rules because it is important that they not have a
>> personal interest when making decisions on behalf of ICANN. But all we ask
>> is that they sign a piece of paper affirming what their conflicts are (if
>> any) and assuring that should one arise, they will act properly.
>> In the case of individual members, one has to look at the risks of
>> accepting people's word, the harm it would cause, and now much it would
>> cost/difficulty to investigate further vs the benefits.
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> At 02/12/2017 07:10 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
>>
>> Sorry that was sent too early, accidentally This is really opening up a
>> can of worms.   have to take people's word on TRUST.
>> It has already been intimated that we might need to get the membership
>> lists of all our ALSes to check on whether people are legitimately NOT
>> members - I can just imagine trying to keep track of the members of PICISOC
>> or any ISOC In India.
>> Becoming an individual member to be able to contribute on your own behalf
>> rather than a group's view is legitimate, but how does a single person
>> compete against a chartered organisation for regional funds to do outreach
>> so that they can fulfil the other ICANN expectations of ALses?
>> ØKeeping the community of individual Internet users informed
>> about the significant news from ICANN ØPromoting outreach
>> activities in the community of individual Internet users ØDistributing
>> (through posting or otherwise) an updated agenda, news about ICANN, and
>> information about items in the ICANN policy-development process ØDeveloping
>> and maintaining on-going information and education programs, regarding
>> ICANN and its work ØMaking public, and analyzing, ICANN's
>> proposed policies and its decisions and their (potential)regional impact
>> and (potential) effect on individuals in the region; I started to make
>> mention of the fact that we could have to ask people who have disagreements
>> with their ALS managements and leave, that they may have to bring along a
>> letter saying that they are no longer members. But what a hassle. But it
>> is one of the thngs that I would like to discuss with an volunteers of a
>> group of APRALO members to discuss ALS criteria, expectations and metrics. Anyone
>> want to join, drop me a line, and I will get staff to create a wiki space
>> for us. Maureen On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Maureen Hilyard <
>> maureen.hilyard at gmail.com> wrote: This is really opening up a can of
>> worms.   have to take people's word on TRUST. It has already been
>> intimated that we might need to get the membership lists of all our ALSes
>> to check on whether people are legitimately NOT members - I can just
>> imagine trying to keep track of the members of PICISOC or any ISOC In
>> India. Becoming an individual member to be able to contribute on your
>> own behalf rather than a group's view is legitimate, but how does a single
>> person compete against a chartered organisation for regional funds to do
>> outreach so that thy can fulfil the other ICANN expectations in their
>> bylaws of ALses? ØKeeping the community of individual Internet
>> users informed about the significant news from ICANN ØPromoting
>> outreach activities in the community of individual Internet users ØDistributing
>> (through posting or otherwise) an updated agenda, news about ICANN, and
>> information about items in the ICANN policy-development process ØDeveloping
>> and maintaining on-going information and education programs, regarding
>> ICANN and its work
>>
>>   but we also have to be mindful, that if former ALS members leave an
>> organisation, they may require a formal letter indicating that they are not
>> longer a member as part of the RALO application process. This will
>> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 3:26 AM, Satish Babu <sb at inapp.com> wrote: Thanks
>> Rajnesh. The current mechanism is a self-declaration by the applicant.
>> We have been finding that this doesn't always work. As you have pointed
>> out, it is not always easy to keep track of the affiliations of
>> organizations that a person is a member of. We will consider revising the
>> wording or providing an example.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> satish   On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Rajnesh Singh <
>> rajnesh.singh at gmail.com > wrote: So I wonder out loud what is the
>> process to ensure that an individual applicant is not already a member via
>> an ALS? This could get messy as one could belong to one of many
>> ALS’ - - - like e I do for example. Sometimes hard to track, be
>> aware of.
>>
>> Raj On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 at 1:38 pm, Maureen Hilyard <
>> maureen.hilyard at gmail.com> wrote: Hi Afifa If Buddha is already a member
>> of ISOC Kolkata then he cannot be an individual member? He should already
>> be involved.
>>
>> M :) On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Afifa Abbas <
>> afifa.abbas118 at gmail.com > wrote: Hi All, I met Buddha in Abu Dhabi and
>> he seems very passionate. He reached out to me for an outreach. I
>> totally support their application. Regards, Afifa On Thu, Nov 23, 2017
>> at 7:43 AM, Pavan Budhrani * <pavan at namesphere.asia> wrote: Please check
>> the answers below, Staff there are some with a N/A, please help get that
>> information * Do they allow individual members?Yes    Institutional
>> members? N/A * What is size of their membership at this time? What
>> proportion of their membership are individuals? (10) in Board of
>> Trustees (3) Audit Committee (5) in Board of Directors (35) other
>> members†* Can individual members assume leadership positions?
>>
>> N/A Also please help follow up with Buddha Haldar, Staff :) Thanks so
>> much! Pavan
>> On 11/21/17 9:01 PM, Satish Babu wrote:
>>
>> * Do they allow individual members? Institutional members? * What is
>> size of their membership at this time? What proportion of their membership
>> are individuals? * Can individual members assume leadership positions?
>>
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