[APAC-Discuss] [ALAC-Internal] ALS Application: Netmission.ASIA

[Fouad Bajwa]

Hi Siva,

Kindly feel free to develop a proposal for presentation in the
upcoming APRALO meeting and we can put it up for voting or comments
and should it receive consensus we will forward it to ALAC and should
ALAC find it useful can call a comment or vote from all RALOs and
after which we can wait and see if this works :o)

-- Take care

Fouad



On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Fouad,
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Siva,
>>
>> There are two things here that count in my personal opinion that who
>> first introduced the group to APRALO and invited them to submit their
>> application, maybe this would be a good addition as then there would
>> be a voice pre due diligence that could introduce the group or
>> organization to the RALO.
>
> This can be easily be implemented by introducing a column such as "How do
> you know about At-Large?" or by introducing a more specific column where the
> applicant indicates the name of the person/persons who invited the founding
> members to form an ALS. The person(s) who encouraged the formation of the
> ALS definitely knows more about the initial members than others, so this
> would be a good idea.
>
>>
>> As far as the issue about one's association with a corporate entity is
>> concerned, that is a personal issue because most of the people even
>> involved within civil society are engaged in some form of a business
>> or commercial activity to run their kitchens. If we study the various
>> ISOC Chapters across the board, alot of people are engaged in
>> commercial consulting, commercial activity, corporates etc but on an
>> individual basis comprise the membership of those organizations.
>
> But would ISOC approve an ISOC Microsoft Chapter or an ISOC Google Chapter?
> Would be approve of a GoDaddy At Large Structure? ( said here as imaginative
> examples )
>>
>> AS for the example part, how do we know whether all of us are not
>> commercial affiliates with a social or civil society faces? We will
>> never be able to determine that unless you carry a track record of
>> activism that would get you into trouble as it has gotten me on
>> various occasions and is found over the Internet ;o)
>
> Though this is off track, good work some times attracts a bit of trouble,
> but the trouble does not last forever.
>
>>
>> Privacy is an important issue and it may be objectionable to disclose
>> so much detail when such an issue might go up to the level of other
>> RALO's and then to their ALSs.
>>
>> I have seen capture oriented approaches in groups that are not
>> diligent towards the kind of people applying for membership. AS far as
>> I know, people appear within the RALOs through possible invitations or
>> introductions.
>>
>> My perception about Net Mission as you raise comes because of the
>> stage at which you introduced the argument which is exactly at which
>> Net Mission application has been received. Maybe you could have
>> possibly created a separate thread and raised the issue for future
>> discussion.
>
> Yes, I could have.
> ( And I did not know that it was you who encouraged the formation of this
> ALS, so this comment is not to be construed as one that is intended to go
> against your initiatives.)
>
>>
>> I also did a basic due diligence activity on Net Mission as an example
>> using the Internet/Web as it itself can be used for transparency and
>> accountability. It showed us all the members of Net Mission and it
>> also displayed what they did with both documentary evidence.
>>
>> I guess we can have an add-on on request basis only by a RALO
>> leadership to the due-diligence process that once an applications dg
>> has been completed, and should a RALO leadership request, more
>> information may be inquired from a prospective applicant but that is
>> totally an ALAC level intervention. Maybe a reference request clause
>> can be added asking questions like, who introduced you to ALAC or the
>> RALO etc and that person can be inquired as well but again, too much.
>
> As stated earlier, it is a good idea to include a column in the application
> form.
>
>>
>> Best
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear Cheryl, Fouad,
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear Cheryl,
>> >>
>> >> Indeed, your detailed explanation of the question in argument gives me
>> >> complete guidance and I had also stepped towards referring to these
>> >> guidelines laying out the minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure.
>> >>
>> >> Surely and firmly, I wouldn't want ALAC to go that way at all
>> >> especially because of APRALO.
>> >>
>> >> There are more pressing issues at hand in APRALO to work with and I
>> >> would definitely not be looking towards triggering any such arguments
>> >> within ALAC.
>> >>
>> >> Once again I thank you for sharing your experienced guidance with me
>> >> and others on the list and I hope this issue now stands resolved as to
>> >> a good topic for discussion but not necessary to take forward unless
>> >> it comes up in the APRALO meeting and should it be discussed and find
>> >> the need for further exploration, which personally I believe should
>> >> not be the case.
>> >>
>> >> As a concluding remark, I believe Siva being a colleague fellow of the
>> >> Net Mission Ambassadors and actually also introducing some of them to
>> >> APRALO in the SF APRALO meeting shows that he very well had the
>> >> knowledge of Net Mission members and participants. Secondly, if we all
>> >> follow the Asia Pacific IGF, the secondary application in the
>> >> application Elaine Cheng was one of the organizers of the AP-IGF:
>> >> http://rigf.asia/sponsors-and-supporters/ during which some of our
>> >> ALAC and APRALO members were also present.
>> >
>> > I am not opposing the Netmission application here. What I observed is
>> > that
>> > this application and most ALS applications are short of a list of
>> > members
>> > and some basic details. My observation is not to be interpreted as a
>> > suggestion to do a due diligence on each and every member, which is what
>> > appears to be Fouad's interpretation
>> >>
>> >>  "if the process got involved in checking with each individual their
>> >> background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and
>> >> secondly it
>> >> would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is
>> >> objectively
>> >> designed and structured to do "
>> >
>> > That is not what I have implied.
>> > Let's think of an imaginary situation. If I were to put up an ALS
>> > application, with my company employees as members, how would APRALO /
>> > ALAC
>> > understand the absence of diversity?  If the member list is furnished in
>> > the
>> > format Name + Company + City + contact information + any other
>> > organizational affiliation + some information about the member /
>> > officer's
>> > interest in ICANN AT-Large, it would become easier to look at the list
>> > and
>> > at a quick glance assess if there is a balance.
>> > This would not be an extraordinarily difficult change for the RALO and
>> > ALAC
>> > to adopt and call for.
>> > Thank you
>> > Sivasubramanian M
>> >>
>> >> I would consider this argument concluded and apologize for the
>> >> attention it drew from everyone's time.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Regards.
>> >> --------------------------
>> >> Fouad Bajwa
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr
>> >> <langdonorr at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Fouad  you outline many of the concerns  ALAC  would be discussing
>> >> > and
>> >> > debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far  and
>> >> > of
>> >> > course we would also no doubt need to audit  changes and claims made
>> >> > in
>> >> > application of existing ALSes  (just to be fair)   Happy Google
>> >> > searching on
>> >> > all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership
>> >> > pf
>> >> > the
>> >> > Organisational Members we list   I think you see the tone of my
>> >> > personal
>> >> > view on this... BUT  should APRALO desire a change to these ALS
>> >> > application
>> >> > forms  you now know  how that would need to be approached if it were
>> >> > to
>> >> > have
>> >> > any chance of it happening...
>> >> > Also note please the Criteria  for becoming an ALS does not discuss
>> >> > the
>> >> > need
>> >> > for "members"  per se at all...
>> >> > see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm
>> >> > but
>> >> > rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE :
>> >> >
>> >> > Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:
>> >> >
>> >> > Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed
>> >> > participation
>> >> > in
>> >> > ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information
>> >> > on
>> >> > relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based
>> >> > mechanisms
>> >> > that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues
>> >> > among
>> >> > individual constituents/members, and involving individual
>> >> > constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development,
>> >> > discussions
>> >> > and
>> >> > decisions.
>> >> > Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who
>> >> > are
>> >> > citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in
>> >> > which
>> >> > the
>> >> > ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may
>> >> > permit
>> >> > additional participation by others that is compatible with the
>> >> > interests
>> >> > of
>> >> > the individual Internet users within the region.
>> >> > Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding).
>> >> > Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere)
>> >> > publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals,
>> >> > structure,
>> >> > description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms,
>> >> > leadership, and contact(s).
>> >> > Assist the RALO in performing its function
>> >> >  FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm
>> >> >
>> >> > As well as  "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the
>> >> > matters of
>> >> > 'Membership'  etc.,  (amongst other matters) is outlined in full,
>> >> > EN
>> >> >  version  is found
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > at https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7%2520ALS%2520Application%2520Interpretation%2520Guidelines%2520-%2520EN.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1283970985000
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheryl Langdon-Orr
>> >> > (CLO)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Cheryl and all,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge
>> >> >> as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> note here that if the process got involved in checking with each
>> >> >> individual their background, that would be first an invasion on
>> >> >> one's
>> >> >> privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to
>> >> >> fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at
>> >> >> applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since
>> >> >> Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were
>> >> >> "adopted
>> >> >> fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as
>> >> >> Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some
>> >> >> information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young
>> >> >> participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very
>> >> >> vocal,
>> >> >> transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO
>> >> >> meeting
>> >> >> and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the
>> >> >> meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about
>> >> >> her experience at
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco.
>> >> >> Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the
>> >> >> application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up
>> >> >> http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Each member listed in the application displays significant
>> >> >> participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was
>> >> >> participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> delivered:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSProposals2010View&wspid=75
>> >> >> If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual
>> >> >> report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-web.pdf.
>> >> >> In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I
>> >> >> wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns
>> >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These
>> >> >> members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to
>> >> >> hear
>> >> >> their young point of views on Internet user related issues.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS
>> >> >> application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own
>> >> >> personal
>> >> >> individual basis I would not support such a practice neither
>> >> >> encourage
>> >> >> it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of
>> >> >> individual membership in the future because then an individual would
>> >> >> have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from
>> >> >> Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option
>> >> >> in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence
>> >> >> and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young
>> >> >> leaders
>> >> >> again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Take care all.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Regards.
>> >> >> --------------------------
>> >> >> Fouad Bajwa
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr
>> >> >> <langdonorr at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hi Siva  what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is
>> >> >> >  decided
>> >> >> > by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > Board
>> >> >> > on this)  and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal
>> >> >> >  on
>> >> >> > ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS
>> >> >> > application
>> >> >> > forms and the processes associated with them...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > FYI  the last major overhaul of this system and forms  started in
>> >> >> > 2007
>> >> >> > at
>> >> >> > the LA Meeting  and was completed in 2008... and was in part
>> >> >> > responding
>> >> >> > to a
>> >> >> > matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the
>> >> >> > then
>> >> >> > ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations  that we
>> >> >> > also
>> >> >> > strive
>> >> >> > so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > the public record the status and progression of received
>> >> >> > applications.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So if a Region (such as APRALO)  believe  changes  to or
>> >> >> > additional
>> >> >> > information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO
>> >> >> > Officers
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS
>> >> >> > applicant
>> >> >> >  (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to
>> >> >> > get
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > happen is to request the RALO  to have these suggestions and
>> >> >> > the rational etc.,  for them  brought  forward  to the ALAC and to
>> >> >> > request a
>> >> >> > process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards
>> >> >> > etc.,)
>> >> >> >  set for a formal review...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Cheryl Langdon-Orr
>> >> >> > (CLO)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn at gmail.com>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hello
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Could there be a section in the ALS application form the
>> >> >> >> applicant
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic
>> >> >> >> particulars
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> >> >> their
>> >> >> >> profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their
>> >> >> >> position
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> contact information? That would give us an idea about the
>> >> >> >> diversity
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> member base of the proposed ALS.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Thank you.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Sivasubramanian M
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa
>> >> >> >> <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Dear Marilyn,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net
>> >> >> >> > Mission.
>> >> >> >> > We look forward to the due diligence completion and are
>> >> >> >> > positive
>> >> >> >> > about
>> >> >> >> > Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Best
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Fouad
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon
>> >> >> >> > <staff at atlarge.icann.org>
>> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> > > Dear all,
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > > This is to inform you that we received an ALS application
>> >> >> >> > > from
>> >> >> >> > > Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and
>> >> >> >> > > would
>> >> >> >> > > be a
>> >> >> >> > > member of APRALO if accepted.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > > Please find the application form attached. The regional
>> >> >> >> > > liaison
>> >> >> >> > > for
>> >> >> >> Asia
>> >> >> >> > > Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due
>> >> >> >> > > diligence
>> >> >> >> > > for
>> >> >> >> this
>> >> >> >> > > application in due course.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > > --
>> >> >> >> > > Regards,
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > > Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn
>> >> >> >> > > Vernon
>> >> >> >> > > ICANN At-Large Staff
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>