<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Folks<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let’s start with the bylaws - we - ALAC - are here to represent the interests of end users.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Given the geographical spread of end users, a structure was established such that those in a region could also concentrate on the interests of users in that region - and bring that knowledge to ALAC through the RALOs. However, it is also the case that particular organizations representing the interests of a particular category of user (people with a disability, etc) have global reach and are not associated with any particular region. (If they are regionally focussed, they can join that RALAO as an organization)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do not think we should lose the RALO structure - it allows for regional as well as global participation. So I would not be in favor of in any way diminishing the RALO structure</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> That said, we could create a category of membership that is a global organization representing the interests of end users. While it would not be associated with any particular RALO, we could find a way to allow global members who do represent end user interests.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Just a thought. But I think making members of a global organization join as individuals is diminishing the importance of that organization <b class="">as an Organization</b> as a member of the community. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 20, 2019, at 9:54 AM, Maureen Hilyard <<a href="mailto:maureen.hilyard@gmail.com" class="">maureen.hilyard@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">How bizarre.. it seems that ISOC makes different rules for different regions.. or it might have been under different leadership at different periods of ISOC's own history.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">M.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:30 PM Judith Hellerstein <<a href="mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com" class="">judith@jhellerstein.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">HI Maureen,</p><p class="">It could have involved getting permission from the chapters in
the region. When ISOC Canada was started they had to get approval
from ISOC Quebec so possibly they had to get approvals from all
the countries and that was an issue or it could be a domain issue,
that is what have bedeviled lots of chapters wanting to start up</p><p class="">Just a thought</p><p class="">Judith<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625moz-signature" cols="80">_________________________________________________________________________
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Hellerstein & Associates
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</pre>
<div class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625moz-cite-prefix">On 9/19/2019 7:07 PM, Maureen Hilyard
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Carlton
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I can't understand how ISOC would have rejected ISOC
Caribbean when we have the Pacific Islands Chapter (PICISOC)
consisting of 22 countries and as well as that, the PICISOC
Chair was the first Chair of APRALO.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">M</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:59
AM Carlton Samuels <<a href="mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">carlton.samuels@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">It's an interesting conundrum, this ISOC
Global business. And one where - where else but LAC I ask? -
we have engaged in this identity question. Because this is
about identity.
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Our brethren once tried to start an ISOC
Caribbean chapter; drawing membership from multiple
political jurisdictions. Sintra spent months working on
it. Result? Abandoned, one reason being ISOC Up So never
warmed to the idea. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">That idea of a global member was settled So
too, that of global members who are also members of a
geographically-prescribed chapter, too. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">The idea of a chapter across multiple
geographies and borders, with global members + regional +
national members was too much of a mashup and harder to
digest, a bridge too far.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Some of us has long accepted that it is
simply preposterous that the good folks classed as end
users in the Cayman Islands, 45 mins from KIN by air and
where they were once governed from KIN, cannot form an ALS
in LACRALO. Dave Archbold (of the ccNSO and a Brit) and I
would lament this condition. So I was chuffed and
personally very proud of the LACRALO/Bixlab decision One
small step, progress on the larger idea...</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">In this region we still struggle to come to
terms with the meaning of "domiciled" in context of
representation. And even if end users need be enumerated
if you are called to "represent" their interests. It is
the basis of the struggle per individual membership.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I have watched the arguments - and some were
intellectually dishonest! - eventually shift to embrace
ideas that are "fluid" in respect of identity in service
of end user representation.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Like the idea that once could "live" in the
UK and represent. Or, you could live in Panama or Madrid
or North America and still be the representative of your
ALS in another country. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Yes, identity is for some of us less of a
social construct and more of a "branded at birth"
concept. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">So, for example, we struggle to accept that
one could be an end user representative even with a day
job in the public service. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Or, that one could volunteer in the public
service, be a licensed professional for work and volunteer
with a NGO. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Or own a small business, be member of that
small business organization, form and volunteer with an
NGO and represent end users.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Seen it all. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Progress on these ideas is slow and
vexatious. But as per Carlos Raul, we can go somewhere
else with other mindsets, rules etc. Thats what we are
called to do in service of a more perfect end user
representation.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">The objective is and remains a more perfect
representation for that 4B or so end users. So I cannot
embrace immutabilty of the representation model. Let's
explore! Think, explore, tinker and mashup all of these
representation models. Whaddya know, something good may
yet emerge.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Carlton.</div>
<br class="">
-------------------------------------'<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 19 Sep 2019,
2:17 pm Carlos Raul Gutierrez, <<a href="mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">carlosraul@gutierrez.se</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class=""><p class="">I'm not suggesting to remove anything. There are
enough ideas to change/un-change/BEND rules already
(or at least this is my pre-warming impression from
the last few days).</p><p class="">I'm just suggesting a reasonable Interpretation:
that well and above of "NATIONAL"-ALS's we can go
somewhere else, with other mindsets, rules,
established frameworks, etc. ICANN is large. </p>
<div id="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023signature" class="">---<br class="">
<div class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023pre" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">Carlos Raúl
Gutiérrez</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023pre" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"><a href="mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">carlosraul@gutierrez.se</a></div>
<div class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023pre" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">+506 8837 7176</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023pre" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">Aparatado 1571-1000</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023pre" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">COSTA RICA<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p id="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023reply-intro" class="">El
2019-09-19 13:11, Alan Greenberg escribió:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px" class="">
<div id="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023replybody1" class="">
<div class="">Are you suggesting remove the concept of
ALSes and have only individual members?<br class="">
<br class="">
Alan<br class="">
<br class="">
At 19/09/2019 12:00 PM, Eduardo Diaz wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625gmail-m_1977696397388109644m_-2742218864219518071m_2405608741308893023v1cite">Another
possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the
concept of regional views is maintained, but
make each of its participants individual
members and remove the concept of
unaffiliated. <br class="">
<br class="">
-ed<br class="">
<br class="">
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan
Greenberg <<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>
> wrote:<br class="">
<dl class="">
<dd class="">This is not a result of just our
"rules", but is also a core principle from
the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">The criteria and standards for the
certification of At-Large Structures shall
be established in such a way that
participation by individual Internet users
who are citizens or residents of countries
within the Geographic Region of the RALO
will predominate in the operation of each
At-Large Structure within the RALO, while
not necessarily excluding additional
participation, compatible with the
interests of the individual Internet users
within the region, by others.</dd>
<dd class=""><br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both
would require a Bylaw change (certainly
possible).<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and
unaffiliated members be one amorphous
mass. This removes the need to identify an
ALS with a specific RALO, since there are
none.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">2. Develop the concept of an ALS which
crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to
any of them.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">If indeed we have a potential ALS that
will really help At-Large, we don't want
to lose them, but I have an aversion for
doing things in violation of our own rules
and the ICANN Bylaws.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">Alan<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard
wrote:</dd>
<dd class="">Hi Olivier<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">Maybe the rules need changing. Just
because a group has members from all over
the world, why should we stop them from
becoming members of At-Large.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">The group currently had a leadership
team whose members are all resident in the
APRALO region. They are one of the few
applications that I have seen that
actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC
chapter focusing on rural development, it
probably has a majority of members from
APRALO if all of its leadership team is
from the same region.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">Since our current rules only note the
primary and secondary members of an ALS
regardless of who is most active in our
work in At-Large, when it comes to who the
other members are, no-one really bothers
to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we
were to do an analysis (and were to be so
picky) we would have several groups that
have global members.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">If we get active participants out of
this ALS we should count ourselves lucky.
That is the whole point of our ALS
recruitment process. And as part of our
Review we are finding that many of our
processes need updating to keep up with
the changing needs of the environments we
are having to deal with.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">EURALO itself has been faced with an
anomaly which does not fit the rules, but
we have found LACRALO to be very obliging
to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS
Criteria and Expectations we will have to
include a new "rule" that allows for
ALSes to participate in an event on a
neighbouring country that "does not belong
to the region in which they are situated".
BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow
this to happen more within our system as
long as there is agreement between the
regions concerned.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">APRALO has many small island countries
in the Pacific that have been unable to
participate in ICANN activities in their
own right under our current rules because
they are territories of big power
countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given
no support from their home region and
would have no idea what EURALO was.
Pacific countries are an anomaly because
as all the 22 countries and territories of
the Pacific are members of the Pacific
Forum, they are therefore members of
PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS
already -- so we have international
participants in our membership, even
though they live in the Pacific.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">Maureen<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ
Crépin-Leblond, <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">ocl@gih.com</a>>
wrote:
<dl class="">
<dd class="">Dear Maureen,</dd>
<dd class="">I am very surprised to see this
having reached the ALAC with a
recommendation from APRALO that this
should be accepted. This should have
been picked up at Due Diligence:
Internet Society Special Interest
Groups are global as per the
explanation on <a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs</a></dd>
<dd class="">This countervenes ALAC rules which
specify that ALSes must be
geographical. See <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07</a></dd>
<dd class="">"2. Be organised so that
participation by individual Internet
users who are citizens or residents of
countries within the Geographic Region
in which the ALS is based will
predominate in the ALS' operation. The
ALS may permit additional
participation by others that is
compatible with the interests of the
individual Internet users within the
region."</dd>
<dd class="">The key words are "be organised" -
and as much as I support the work of
the Internet Society Rurel Special
Interest Group, rural areas are not
limited to Asia. Unless there is a
commitment that this SIG will restrict
the majority of its membership to come
from the Asia region. The explicit
response of the SIG in due diligence
was "this is a global SIG".</dd>
<dd class="">I also have a concern that it would
be possible to create one SIG after
another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS
no longer applies as you are
effectively creating votes.</dd>
<dd class="">The question of "geographical" was
asked on the APRALO mailing list as
recently as 11 September 2019 ( <a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952.html" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952.html</a>
) but I do not see any response to
this.</dd>
<dd class="">Kindest regards,</dd>
<dd class="">Olivier</dd>
<dd class="">On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large
Staff wrote:</dd>
<dd class="">Dear All, </dd>
<dd class=""> </dd>
<dd class="">The regional advice from APRALO
regarding the ALS Application (307)
Internet Society Rural Development
Special Interest Group has been
received.</dd>
<dd class=""> </dd>
<dd class="">The following question has been
posed to the ALAC:</dd>
<dd class=""> </dd>
<dd class="">*****</dd>
<dd class="">Question: Does the ALAC wish to
accredit the (307) Internet Society
Rural Development Special Interest
Group? The regional advice was to
accept the application.</dd>
<dd class="">*****</dd>
<dd class=""> </dd>
<dd class="">Please note that this vote will
close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019
23:59 UTC.<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">Kind Regards,</dd>
<dd class=""> </dd>
<dd class="">ICANN Policy Staff in support of the
At-Large Community<br class="">
<br class="">
</dd>
<dd class="">Website: <a href="https://atlarge.icann.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">atlarge.icann.org</a>
<br class="">
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<pre class="gmail-m_-6065874196100164625moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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