<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hello Kan,<br><br></div>Personally i don't think this should be difficult to decide upon, it seem there is already significant traction for option 2, if we are in doubt and when consensus by observing the discussion does not seem to work then we can fall back on voting. I don't think this is a complicated matter at all, we all want what is best and fair in the long run. <br><br>I have given you my opinion on why delegating to ALT would not be an idea thing to do in this situation, did you find that convincing at all? if not why? As to extension of current board member, i don't think that is an option[1] neither is the option to assign our responsibility to nomcom. [2]<br><br></div>In summary, we seem to both agree that it is those contestant that fall in a tie that should be further looked into, where we have disagreement is on whether it should be the role of a selected few of the electorate who makes such decision (i.e the ALT) or it should be left to just casting lot (selection by randomization). I go for the later based on my previous explanation but you prefer the former which is still fine but not my preference. Overall if we cannot agree then we can just do a formal consensus call by voting and i will be fine with any of the options that finally gets the highest traction.<br><br></div>Regards<br>1. unless we want to unanimously appoint the current board member for a new term because we are unable to decide upon a minor selection process.<br></div>2. Nomcom role is not to appoint SO/AC representative to the board and it will even speak a lot about us in terms of how organized and together we are.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Kan Kaili <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">kankaili@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">Hi, Alan and all,</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">In my understanding, the Board Member selection
procedure needs to be done before the Helsinki meeting, and there is a certain
time-urgency. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">Thus, as the democratic process deciding this
procedure may go on forever, I suggest the following alternetives in case we
cannot reach an agreement on the procedures on time:</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">1. Extend the term of our current Board Member
for a certain period, maybe for one or two years, at least until a new Member
emerges from the procedure later agreed upon. I believe this is justified
because Rinalia has done an outstanding job at the Board representing ALAC
during her term. Thus, it should be most natural to extend her term for a
certain period in such a case, and should be acceptable to everybody, at least
the mass majority. (At least I do not hear anybody shouting to replace her
immediately for poor performance.)</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">2. I don't think every detail of the
rules always need to be fully set before hand, as long as they can be
amended or changed later. For example, Magna Carta is far from a full
scale constitution, and even the US Constitution was amended for many many
times. Thus, maybe we can decide on ALAC's Board Member by simply a
consensus call among all people eligible to vote on this matter without a formal
vote. If we take this approach, I would suggest Rinalia to defend her past
work and layout plans for the next term as the incumbent. Meanwhile
we would see if there is any challanger for this position and how
he/she "opens fire" on Rinalia. If necessary, a debate can be held before
the consensus call.</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">3. In case we cannot make a decision ourselves
after certain effort, we submit the final condidates to NomCom to decide for
us. Of course, this may not look so good for ALAC, but we must get
things done if they must be done, and must not leave all the end-users
disappointed without representation to the Board.</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">Meanwhile, as in my previous email, I still believe
delegating the ALT to decide on behalf is the best in case necessary.
Above alternatives are only as backups in case.</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">Again, being the most junior ALAC member, all the
above is to express my thoughts for your consideration.</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2">Kaili</font></div><div><div class="h5">
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="宋体" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="h.raiche@internode.on.net" href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net" target="_blank">Holly Raiche</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>To:</b> <a title="alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">Alan Greenberg</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn" href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn" target="_blank">Tijani BEN JEMAA</a> ; <a title="kankaili@gmail.com" href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">Kan Kaili</a> ; <a title="alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC Working List</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2016 6:18 AM</div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</div>
<div><br></div>I have to agree with Alan (and Kaili) here.
<div><br></div>
<div>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over anything.
However, they may be situations where, for timing reasons, the ALT may
be an appropriate mechanism to reach a decision.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with situations that
have been described, and they must be as open and democratic and fair as
possible. But we must also reserve the means of solving disputes in ways
that do not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC members. I”m sure
there will be a solution, hopefully without absorbing too much more time and
effort of all of us</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Holly</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg <<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>>
wrote:</div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de facto, have
any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than those rights
of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to the
ALT.<br><br>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time to time,
delegate actions of the ALAC to the ALT. It happens relatively rarely, but
does on occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight timing
requirements.<br><br>Alan<br><br>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani BEN JEMAA
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#002e7a">Dear
Kaili,</font><br><font color="#002e7a"><br>I’m sorry to disagree with you
on everything: </font>
<ul><font color="#002e7a">
<li>The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC members only, but also
the RALO leaders, so the ALAC can’t delegate to ALT what is not its
sole duty </li></font>
<li><font color="#002e7a">even if we suppose that the ALT is elected
democratically by the ALAC members, this doesn’t mean that the ALT can
be delegated to replace the ALAC. This is exactly the argument given by
the authoritarian regimes arguing that since they were elected by their
people, they have all the rights to do everything on their behalf
because they know better then the people where is their interest. When
you are democratically elected, it is a mandate for a limited time to do
certain things; it is not an open mandate to replace who elected you
outside the mandate you are elected for.
</font></li></ul><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><b>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<br></b>Executive Director<br>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<b>FMAI</b>)<br>Phone: <a href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114" value="+21698330114" target="_blank">+216 98 330 114</a><br>
+216 52 385
114<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã
15:46, Kan Kaili <<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> a écrit
:<br><br><font size="2">Hi, Tijani,<br></font> <br><font size="2">The
awswer to your question: Basically, yes. That is, when ALAC faces
a tie during the selection of its Board Director, or other positions
generally in principle, the ALT will be delegated to make the selection
on behalf of ALAC.<br></font> <br><font size="2">The justification of
this includes:<br></font> <br><font size="2">- When there is a tie,
all the tied candidates are equal representations of
ALAC.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- The ALT is democratically
elected with full representation of all regions, cultures and,
presumably, various interests.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- ALT
members are elected due to their experience and contribution to ICANN's
mission, who should also be most capable to make the best selection
among candidates.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- As the ALT will be
making the selection on behalf of all of ALAC, the process should be
open to all ALAC voting members (not beyond). Thus, the selection
made by each ALT member in this process will affect the support he/she
receives during later elections of the ALT. This will in turn put
a "lid" on any possible blackbox deals which will be the safeguard for
our democratic principle.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- We at ALAC
are merely representatives of ALSes, or of the end-users in the world
(maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom selectees like me).
Thus, as they elected and delegated us to make selections on their
behalf, it would also make sense to extend the same principle to the ALT
in the case we cannot effectively make a
selection.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Furthermore, as Alan pointed
out, it is possible, even likely, that tied-candidates be ALT members
themselves, and even the chairperson him/herself. So be it.
I don't think anywhere in the world's elections prohibit a person to
vote for him/herself. Based on the above same arguments, he/she
has received enough support for the position during the "general"
election process, and is thus well deserved. Thus, he/she moving
to the Board will vacate the ALT position, maybe even the chairperson
position, for new blood. Also, as he/she gets the position as
desired, I am sure that he/she will work even harder to contribute to
ICANN's mission.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Of course, before ALT
selects on behalf of the whole ALAC, how many rounds of tie-breaking
need to take place is up to debate. As I am not familiar to the
current process, I am sure that, with so much wisdom in ALAC, a process
to bridge the gap between the current process and the future one could
be designed. However, again as Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has
proven, especially as the Board Member selection process has been a
"long and painful" one so far, a certain degree of "dictatorship"
("democracy-based dictatorship" to be exact) has to be there as a last
resort.<br> <br>Thank you, and thank you all.<br> <br>Best
regards,<br>Kaili<br> <br> <br></font>
<blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message
----- <br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn" target="_blank">Tijani BEN
JEMAA</a><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">Kan
Kaili</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">Seun
Ojedeji</a> ; <a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">Alan
Greenberg</a> ; <a href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC
Working List</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58
PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting
alternatives<br><br><font color="#002e7a">Dear Kaili,</font><br><font color="#002e7a"><br>Do you propose that in the selection of the Board
Director selected by At-Large, when we face a tie, we delegate the ALT
to decide which one should be
dropped????<br></font><br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><b>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<br></b>Executive Director<br>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<b>FMAI</b>)<br>Phone: +216 98 330
114<br> +216 52 385
114<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã
12:00, Kan Kaili <<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> a écrit
:<br><br><font size="2">Hi,<br></font> <br><font size="2">I have
followed this discussion with interest but also confussion. It
seems to me that different options have different pros, cons and
possible outcomes.<br></font> <br><font size="2">As a matter of
fact, this reminds me of Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, basically
saying that democracy can only go so far, and may not necessarily
lead to a fair outcome acceptable by everybody. In that case,
some degree of "dictatorship" is warranted. This is why
republics are established, as well as why the presidential race
between Bush and Gore was finally decided by the Supreme
Court.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Thus, in our case, when a
tie has appeared, I suggest to delegate ALT to decide who will
represent ALAC at the position. After all, the ALT is elected
by all of us thru a fully democratic process. Good
enough. In the case that even the ALT cannot decide, the
chairperson of ALAC will make the final
decision.<br></font> <br><font size="2">I believe this process is
highly executable, and is also fully democratic to its
limit.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Being the most junior member
of ALAC, just expressing some of my thoughts for your
consideration.</font></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>ALAC
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br><a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</a><br><br>At-Large
Online: <a href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org" target="_blank">http://www.atlarge.icann.org</a><br>ALAC Working Wiki:
<a href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</a></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div>
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At-Large Online: <a href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.atlarge.icann.org</a><br>
ALAC Working Wiki: <a href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><font color="#888888"><blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif">
<i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">web: </span><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile: <a value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</a></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><br></i><i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">alt email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453" target="_blank"> </a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Bringing another down does not take you up - think about your action!<br></blockquote></blockquote></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>