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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Suen,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>The issue is about comparing ALT's selection
capability vs. ranmdomness. Are you saying that ALT's selection would be
even worse than randomness?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>If that is the case, let's close our eyes and let ALT
to toss the coin. If that is not the case, let's again close our eyes and
let ALT make the decision as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">Seun
Ojedeji</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A title=h.raiche@internode.on.net
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">Holly Raiche</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=kankaili@gmail.com
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">Kaili Kan</A> ; <A
title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan
Greenberg</A> ; <A title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working List</A> ; <A
title=leonfelipe@sanchez.mx href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx">León Felipe
Sánchez Ambía</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 7:28 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>Hello Holly,<BR><BR></DIV>This is not about my level of trust for the
ALT, all the electorates are one way or the other put in their positions by
their regions and they are equally trustworthy so i would have still said the
same thing if we delegated the role to ALAC or any other leadership.
<BR><BR>My point is that when/if we get to that bridge where 2 or more already
tied contestants returns tied again, it implies both of them are qualified to
be elected and it should not require any other individual(s) to deliberate on
which one of them to choose. The element of luck should just play its magic at
that point; we should all just close our eyes and select one of them which is
the act of selection by randomization.<BR><BR></DIV>Regards<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Holly Raiche <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target=_blank>h.raiche@internode.on.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Hi Seun
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I really worry about your statement that randomness is preferable to
the ALT’s role - an unnecessary human perspective.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>ALT members are there because their regions have put them there.
But when it comes to the crunch, they are not to be trusted!
Really!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I agree, that we are now talking about a very unlikely scenario which,
hopefully, will not happen. That said, I’d really prefer to think that
human consideration is preferable. (and the normal practice in all
Boards is that when a Board member is too closely tied to a particular
outcome, they excuse themselves from participating in making the relevant
decision(s).</DIV><SPAN class=HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Holly</DIV></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 17 Jun 2016, at 6:06 pm, Seun Ojedeji <<A
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target=_blank>seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<P dir=ltr>Hello Kaili,</P>
<P dir=ltr>I think we need to be clear here, going the random option is
last resort and we all may actually never experience it. Three steps would
have happened before randomly doing stuff:</P>
<P dir=ltr>1. There would have been a contested position<BR>2. Votes would
have been casted and resulted to a tie<BR>3. Another set of votes would
have been casted among the contestants in 2 above.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Once the above still result to a tie, I think it is just fair
to go to randomisation that is verifiable. At that point there would be no
human subjectivity as it is assumed that both tied contestants are
qualified to be elected. Seeding that role to ALT brings in unnecessary
human perspective/interference which won't be necessary at that point.
</P>
<P dir=ltr>Secondly, the ALT members are part of the electorates and there
may even be instances where one of them is a contestant so delegating a
section of the electorate the responsibility to determine the elected
would not be a fair election process.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Regards<BR>Sent from my LG G4<BR>Kindly excuse brevity and
typos</P>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 17 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m., "Kan Kaili" <<A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Leon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I agree with you that a random selection
process is the best in accordance to "fairness".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>However, including this random factor into the
selection process implies that we at ALAC rather trust
randomness instead of our own elected ALT. This also implies
that we regard personal fairness to be more important than the
effectiveness of selecting our Board Member. Are those what we
really want?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>As I understand, the Board Member is to
represent ALAC, all the RALOs and ALSs, and in turn all the
end-users to the Board. This is a serious position with
enormous responsibility. I am not sure about what the
end-users will think, but at least I will not feel comfortable having a
randomly selected person to represent me. Furthermore, I am not
sure if such a selectee would feel confident and be effective at that
position either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Sorry to disagree with you on some
points.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=leonfelipe@sanchez.mx href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx"
target=_blank>León Felipe Sánchez Ambía</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A
title=h.raiche@internode.on.net
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net" target=_blank>Holly Raiche</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target=_blank>ALAC Working
List</A> ; <A title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target=_blank>Alan
Greenberg</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 12:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of
RoP Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hello all,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>My sense is that option 2 is the best in fairness. While I
understand the complexities of the rest of the options, I believe
letting those candidates tied for last place compete amongst them is
the most transparent way to address the challenge. In case they are
tied again, then it would be justified to run the verifiable random
disqualification process.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>León</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>El 16/06/2016, a las 5:18 p.m., Holly Raiche <<A
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target=_blank>h.raiche@internode.on.net</A>> escribió:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">I have to agree with Alan (and
Kaili) here.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over
anything. However, they may be situations where, for timing
reasons, the ALT may be an appropriate mechanism to reach a
decision.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with
situations that have been described, and they must be as open and
democratic and fair as possible. But we must also reserve the
means of solving disputes in ways that do not absorb too much time
and energy of ALAC members. I”m sure there will be a solution,
hopefully without absorbing too much more time and effort of
all of us</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Holly</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg <<A
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target=_blank>alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de
facto, have any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC
other than those rights of the Chair which the Chair might
actively delegate to the ALT.<BR><BR>However, the ALAC may, if it
chooses, from time to time, delegate actions of the ALAC to the
ALT. It happens relatively rarely, but does on occasion occur,
usually for reasons of tight timing
requirements.<BR><BR>Alan<BR><BR>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani
BEN JEMAA wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>I’m sorry to disagree
with you on everything: </FONT>
<UL><FONT color=#002e7a>
<LI>The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC members
only, but also the RALO leaders, so the ALAC can’t delegate
to ALT what is not its sole duty </FONT>
<LI><FONT color=#002e7a>even if we suppose that the ALT is
elected democratically by the ALAC members, this doesn’t
mean that the ALT can be delegated to replace the ALAC. This
is exactly the argument given by the authoritarian regimes
arguing that since they were elected by their people, they
have all the rights to do everything on their behalf because
they know better then the people where is their interest. When
you are democratically elected, it is a mandate for a limited
time to do certain things; it is not an open mandate to
replace who elected you outside the mandate you are elected
for.
</FONT></LI></UL><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean Federation
of Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone: <A
href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114" target=_blank
value="+21698330114">+216 98 330 114</A><BR>
+216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 15:46, Kan
Kaili <<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit
:<BR><BR><FONT size=2>Hi, Tijani,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>The awswer to your question: Basically, yes. That
is, when ALAC faces a tie during the selection of its Board
Director, or other positions generally in principle, the ALT
will be delegated to make the selection on behalf of
ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The justification of
this includes:<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- When there
is a tie, all the tied candidates are equal representations of
ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- The ALT is
democratically elected with full representation of all
regions, cultures and, presumably, various
interests.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- ALT members are
elected due to their experience and contribution to ICANN's
mission, who should also be most capable to make the best
selection among candidates.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>-
As the ALT will be making the selection on behalf of all of
ALAC, the process should be open to all ALAC voting members
(not beyond). Thus, the selection made by each ALT
member in this process will affect the support he/she receives
during later elections of the ALT. This will in turn put
a "lid" on any possible blackbox deals which will be the
safeguard for our democratic
principle.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- We at ALAC are
merely representatives of ALSes, or of the end-users in the
world (maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom selectees
like me). Thus, as they elected and delegated us to make
selections on their behalf, it would also make sense to extend
the same principle to the ALT in the case we cannot
effectively make a selection.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Furthermore, as Alan pointed out, it is possible, even
likely, that tied-candidates be ALT members themselves, and
even the chairperson him/herself. So be it. I
don't think anywhere in the world's elections prohibit a
person to vote for him/herself. Based on the above same
arguments, he/she has received enough support for the position
during the "general" election process, and is thus well
deserved. Thus, he/she moving to the Board will vacate
the ALT position, maybe even the chairperson position, for new
blood. Also, as he/she gets the position as desired, I
am sure that he/she will work even harder to contribute to
ICANN's mission.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Of course,
before ALT selects on behalf of the whole ALAC, how many
rounds of tie-breaking need to take place is up to
debate. As I am not familiar to the current process, I
am sure that, with so much wisdom in ALAC, a process to bridge
the gap between the current process and the future one could
be designed. However, again as Arrow's Nobel-prized
Theorem has proven, especially as the Board Member selection
process has been a "long and painful" one so far, a certain
degree of "dictatorship" ("democracy-based dictatorship" to be
exact) has to be there as a last resort.<BR> <BR>Thank
you, and thank you all.<BR> <BR>Best
regards,<BR>Kaili<BR> <BR> <BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">----- Original Message -----
<BR><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn"
target=_blank>Tijani BEN JEMAA</A><BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target=_blank>Kan
Kaili</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target=_blank>Seun
Ojedeji</A> ; <A href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target=_blank>Alan Greenberg</A> ; <A
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC Working List</A><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting
alternatives<BR><BR><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>Do you propose that
in the selection of the Board Director selected by At-Large,
when we face a tie, we delegate the ALT to decide which one
should be
dropped????<BR></FONT><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean
Federation of Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone:
+216 98 330 114<BR>
+216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 12:00, Kan
Kaili <<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit
:<BR><BR><FONT size=2>Hi,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>I have followed this discussion with interest but
also confussion. It seems to me that different
options have different pros, cons and possible
outcomes.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>As a matter of
fact, this reminds me of Arrow's Impossibility Theorem,
basically saying that democracy can only go so far, and
may not necessarily lead to a fair outcome acceptable by
everybody. In that case, some degree of
"dictatorship" is warranted. This is why republics
are established, as well as why the presidential race
between Bush and Gore was finally decided by the Supreme
Court.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Thus, in our case,
when a tie has appeared, I suggest to delegate ALT to
decide who will represent ALAC at the position.
After all, the ALT is elected by all of us thru a fully
democratic process. Good enough. In the case
that even the ALT cannot decide, the chairperson of ALAC
will make the final decision.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>I believe this process is highly executable, and is
also fully democratic to its
limit.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Being the most
junior member of ALAC, just expressing some of my thoughts
for your
consideration.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working
Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki:
<A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<HR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki:
<A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A>
<DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>
<DIV class=gmail_signature data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV
dir=ltr>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><FONT
color=#888888>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; FONT-FAMILY: garamond,serif"><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<BR
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Federal
University Oye-Ekiti<BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">web: </SPAN><A
href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng"
target=_blank>http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</A><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile:
<A value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><BR></I><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">alt email:<A href="http://goog_1872880453"
target=_blank> </A><A href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng"
target=_blank>seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</A></SPAN></I><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">Bringing
another down does not take you up - think about your
action!<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>