<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Seun,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I fully agree with you that this random process only
takes place "in case" and most likely may not take into effect.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>However, I am talking about the principle. I
have not seen any single nation including such kind of randomness in its
election process. Thus, as selecting our Board Member is a serious matter,
whe should we do it that way ? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Here I would like to reiterate the following from my
previous email: "... including this random factor into the selection process
implies that we at ALAC rather trust randomness instead of our own elected
ALT. This also implies that we regard personal fairness to be more
important than the effectiveness of selecting our Board Member. Is this
what we want?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>As to contestants may be in the ALT making such a
decision, I would say, so be it. I do not see the reason of being "unfair"
for a person to vote for him/herself. Thus, the whole ALT votes to make
the selection in such a case.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>The only reason I can see for randomness is that,
nobody will be blamed for a result (ANY result, no matter good or bad) but
not being liked by some people. This reason itself showes that the
decision-making parties are not taking their responsibilities seriously
enough.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Of course, in order to decrease the pressure of ALT
members, the ALT selection process can be of secret ballots if so
desired. If the current situation is serious enough, I would agree to
see my ALT selection suggestion amended this way. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>If the ALT making this decision is un-practical in our
current situation, in my other email I have also provided a few other
alternatives for your consideration. However, as proven by the Arrow's
theorem, democracy (and fairness) has its limits, while what must be done must
be done.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>BTW, now I tend to believe I under-estimated
this so-called "long and painful" process before jumping into it.
Maybe next time I should be more careful. :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Thank you again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">Seun
Ojedeji</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A title=kankaili@gmail.com
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">Kaili Kan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan Greenberg</A> ; <A
title=h.raiche@internode.on.net href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">Holly
Raiche</A> ; <A title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working List</A> ; <A
title=leonfelipe@sanchez.mx href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx">León Felipe
Sánchez Ambía</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 4:06 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P dir=ltr>Hello Kaili,</P>
<P dir=ltr>I think we need to be clear here, going the random option is last
resort and we all may actually never experience it. Three steps would have
happened before randomly doing stuff:</P>
<P dir=ltr>1. There would have been a contested position<BR>2. Votes would
have been casted and resulted to a tie<BR>3. Another set of votes would have
been casted among the contestants in 2 above.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Once the above still result to a tie, I think it is just fair to go
to randomisation that is verifiable. At that point there would be no human
subjectivity as it is assumed that both tied contestants are qualified to be
elected. Seeding that role to ALT brings in unnecessary human
perspective/interference which won't be necessary at that point. </P>
<P dir=ltr>Secondly, the ALT members are part of the electorates and there may
even be instances where one of them is a contestant so delegating a section of
the electorate the responsibility to determine the elected would not be a fair
election process.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Regards<BR>Sent from my LG G4<BR>Kindly excuse brevity and
typos</P>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 17 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m., "Kan Kaili" <<A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR
type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Leon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I agree with you that a random selection process
is the best in accordance to "fairness".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>However, including this random factor into the
selection process implies that we at ALAC rather trust
randomness instead of our own elected ALT. This also implies that
we regard personal fairness to be more important than the effectiveness of
selecting our Board Member. Are those what we really
want?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>As I understand, the Board Member is to
represent ALAC, all the RALOs and ALSs, and in turn all the
end-users to the Board. This is a serious position with enormous
responsibility. I am not sure about what the end-users will
think, but at least I will not feel comfortable having a randomly selected
person to represent me. Furthermore, I am not sure if such a selectee
would feel confident and be effective at that position either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Sorry to disagree with you on some
points.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=leonfelipe@sanchez.mx href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx"
target=_blank>León Felipe Sánchez Ambía</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A title=h.raiche@internode.on.net
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net" target=_blank>Holly Raiche</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target=_blank>ALAC Working
List</A> ; <A title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target=_blank>Alan Greenberg</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 12:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hello all,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>My sense is that option 2 is the best in fairness. While I understand
the complexities of the rest of the options, I believe letting those
candidates tied for last place compete amongst them is the most
transparent way to address the challenge. In case they are tied again,
then it would be justified to run the verifiable random disqualification
process.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>León</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>El 16/06/2016, a las 5:18 p.m., Holly Raiche <<A
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target=_blank>h.raiche@internode.on.net</A>> escribió:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">I have to agree with Alan (and Kaili)
here.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over anything.
However, they may be situations where, for timing reasons, the ALT
may be an appropriate mechanism to reach a decision.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with situations
that have been described, and they must be as open and democratic and
fair as possible. But we must also reserve the means of solving
disputes in ways that do not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC
members. I”m sure there will be a solution, hopefully without
absorbing too much more time and effort of all of us</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Holly</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg <<A
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target=_blank>alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de facto,
have any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than
those rights of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to
the ALT.<BR><BR>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time to
time, delegate actions of the ALAC to the ALT. It happens relatively
rarely, but does on occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight
timing requirements.<BR><BR>Alan<BR><BR>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani
BEN JEMAA wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>I’m sorry to disagree
with you on everything: </FONT>
<UL><FONT color=#002e7a>
<LI>The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC members only,
but also the RALO leaders, so the ALAC can’t delegate to ALT
what is not its sole duty </FONT>
<LI><FONT color=#002e7a>even if we suppose that the ALT is elected
democratically by the ALAC members, this doesn’t mean that the
ALT can be delegated to replace the ALAC. This is exactly the
argument given by the authoritarian regimes arguing that since
they were elected by their people, they have all the rights to do
everything on their behalf because they know better then the
people where is their interest. When you are democratically
elected, it is a mandate for a limited time to do certain things;
it is not an open mandate to replace who elected you outside the
mandate you are elected for.
</FONT></LI></UL><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone: <A
href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114" target=_blank
value="+21698330114">+216 98 330 114</A><BR>
+216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 15:46, Kan Kaili
<<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit :<BR><BR><FONT
size=2>Hi, Tijani,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The awswer to
your question: Basically, yes. That is, when ALAC faces a
tie during the selection of its Board Director, or other positions
generally in principle, the ALT will be delegated to make the
selection on behalf of ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The
justification of this includes:<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>-
When there is a tie, all the tied candidates are equal
representations of ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- The
ALT is democratically elected with full representation of all
regions, cultures and, presumably, various
interests.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- ALT members are
elected due to their experience and contribution to ICANN's
mission, who should also be most capable to make the best
selection among candidates.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- As
the ALT will be making the selection on behalf of all of ALAC, the
process should be open to all ALAC voting members (not
beyond). Thus, the selection made by each ALT member in this
process will affect the support he/she receives during later
elections of the ALT. This will in turn put a "lid" on any
possible blackbox deals which will be the safeguard for our
democratic principle.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- We at
ALAC are merely representatives of ALSes, or of the end-users in
the world (maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom selectees
like me). Thus, as they elected and delegated us to make
selections on their behalf, it would also make sense to extend the
same principle to the ALT in the case we cannot effectively make a
selection.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Furthermore, as Alan
pointed out, it is possible, even likely, that tied-candidates be
ALT members themselves, and even the chairperson
him/herself. So be it. I don't think anywhere in the
world's elections prohibit a person to vote for him/herself.
Based on the above same arguments, he/she has received enough
support for the position during the "general" election process,
and is thus well deserved. Thus, he/she moving to the Board
will vacate the ALT position, maybe even the chairperson position,
for new blood. Also, as he/she gets the position as desired,
I am sure that he/she will work even harder to contribute to
ICANN's mission.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Of course,
before ALT selects on behalf of the whole ALAC, how many rounds of
tie-breaking need to take place is up to debate. As I am not
familiar to the current process, I am sure that, with so much
wisdom in ALAC, a process to bridge the gap between the current
process and the future one could be designed. However, again
as Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has proven, especially as the
Board Member selection process has been a "long and painful" one
so far, a certain degree of "dictatorship" ("democracy-based
dictatorship" to be exact) has to be there as a last
resort.<BR> <BR>Thank you, and thank you
all.<BR> <BR>Best
regards,<BR>Kaili<BR> <BR> <BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">----- Original Message -----
<BR><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn"
target=_blank>Tijani BEN JEMAA</A><BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target=_blank>Kan
Kaili</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> <A href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Seun Ojedeji</A> ; <A
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target=_blank>Alan
Greenberg</A> ; <A href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC Working List</A><BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday,
June 16, 2016 8:58 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation
of RoP Director voting alternatives<BR><BR><FONT
color=#002e7a>Dear Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>Do
you propose that in the selection of the Board Director selected
by At-Large, when we face a tie, we delegate the ALT to decide
which one should be
dropped????<BR></FONT><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean Federation
of Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone: +216 98 330
114<BR> +216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 12:00, Kan
Kaili <<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit
:<BR><BR><FONT size=2>Hi,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>I
have followed this discussion with interest but also
confussion. It seems to me that different options have
different pros, cons and possible
outcomes.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>As a matter of
fact, this reminds me of Arrow's Impossibility Theorem,
basically saying that democracy can only go so far, and may
not necessarily lead to a fair outcome acceptable by
everybody. In that case, some degree of "dictatorship"
is warranted. This is why republics are established, as
well as why the presidential race between Bush and Gore was
finally decided by the Supreme
Court.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Thus, in our case,
when a tie has appeared, I suggest to delegate ALT to decide
who will represent ALAC at the position. After all, the
ALT is elected by all of us thru a fully democratic
process. Good enough. In the case that even the
ALT cannot decide, the chairperson of ALAC will make the final
decision.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>I believe this
process is highly executable, and is also fully democratic to
its limit.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Being the most
junior member of ALAC, just expressing some of my thoughts for
your
consideration.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki:
<A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC mailing
list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>