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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Seun,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Thank you for your prompt reply. It seems like
your typing is so much faster than mine (as well as your talking).
:)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I also want to thank you again for smmerizing the
points we agree and disagree in this fully democratic process. (As we are
both new ALAC members, it seems like seniority does not play a
role.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Among the points we agree, I notice that we both agree
that the current Board Member could be extended by another term or so, provided
that "we" (I am not sure who this means) unanimously agree to that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Thus, I propose that "we" conduct the
process right now to see if this is the case. If it works out,
Great. This will save us all the trouble for now, and we will have
plenty of time to agree on all the details of this
procedure, making it ready for our next time and ending this "long and
painful process" for good. If it does not work out, at least we can have a
better understanding of the current situation, and would be better prepared for
the formal procedure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Of course, this again first need to be agreed upon by
"we" and the current Board Member herself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">Seun
Ojedeji</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A title=kankaili@gmail.com
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">Kan Kaili</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=h.raiche@internode.on.net
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">Holly Raiche</A> ; <A
title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan
Greenberg</A> ; <A title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 5:27 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Hello Kan,<BR><BR></DIV>Personally i don't think this should be difficult
to decide upon, it seem there is already significant traction for option 2, if
we are in doubt and when consensus by observing the discussion does not seem
to work then we can fall back on voting. I don't think this is a complicated
matter at all, we all want what is best and fair in the long run. <BR><BR>I
have given you my opinion on why delegating to ALT would not be an idea thing
to do in this situation, did you find that convincing at all? if not why? As
to extension of current board member, i don't think that is an option[1]
neither is the option to assign our responsibility to nomcom.
[2]<BR><BR></DIV>In summary, we seem to both agree that it is those contestant
that fall in a tie that should be further looked into, where we have
disagreement is on whether it should be the role of a selected few of the
electorate who makes such decision (i.e the ALT) or it should be left to just
casting lot (selection by randomization). I go for the later based on my
previous explanation but you prefer the former which is still fine but not my
preference. Overall if we cannot agree then we can just do a formal consensus
call by voting and i will be fine with any of the options that finally gets
the highest traction.<BR><BR></DIV>Regards<BR>1. unless we want to unanimously
appoint the current board member for a new term because we are unable to
decide upon a minor selection process.<BR></DIV>2. Nomcom role is not to
appoint SO/AC representative to the board and it will even speak a lot about
us in terms of how organized and together we are.<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Kan Kaili <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Alan and all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>In my understanding, the Board Member selection
procedure needs to be done before the Helsinki meeting, and there is a
certain time-urgency. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Thus, as the democratic process deciding this
procedure may go on forever, I suggest the following alternetives in case we
cannot reach an agreement on the procedures on time:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>1. Extend the term of our current Board
Member for a certain period, maybe for one or two years, at least until a
new Member emerges from the procedure later agreed upon. I believe
this is justified because Rinalia has done an outstanding job at the Board
representing ALAC during her term. Thus, it should be most natural to
extend her term for a certain period in such a case, and should be
acceptable to everybody, at least the mass majority. (At least I do
not hear anybody shouting to replace her immediately for poor
performance.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>2. I don't think every detail of the
rules always need to be fully set before hand, as long as they
can be amended or changed later. For example, Magna Carta is far
from a full scale constitution, and even the US Constitution was amended for
many many times. Thus, maybe we can decide on ALAC's Board Member by
simply a consensus call among all people eligible to vote on this matter
without a formal vote. If we take this approach, I would suggest
Rinalia to defend her past work and layout plans for the next term as
the incumbent. Meanwhile we would see if there is any
challanger for this position and how he/she "opens fire" on Rinalia.
If necessary, a debate can be held before the consensus call.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>3. In case we cannot make a decision
ourselves after certain effort, we submit the final condidates to NomCom to
decide for us. Of course, this may not look so good for ALAC, but
we must get things done if they must be done, and must not leave all the
end-users disappointed without representation to the Board.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Meanwhile, as in my previous email, I still
believe delegating the ALT to decide on behalf is the best in case
necessary. Above alternatives are only as backups in
case.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Again, being the most junior ALAC member, all the
above is to express my thoughts for your consideration.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=h.raiche@internode.on.net href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target=_blank>Holly Raiche</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target=_blank>Alan Greenberg</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn
href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn" target=_blank>Tijani BEN JEMAA</A>
; <A title=kankaili@gmail.com href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Kan Kaili</A> ; <A title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target=_blank>ALAC Working
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 6:18 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I have to agree with Alan (and Kaili) here.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over anything.
However, they may be situations where, for timing reasons, the ALT
may be an appropriate mechanism to reach a decision.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with situations
that have been described, and they must be as open and democratic and fair
as possible. But we must also reserve the means of solving disputes
in ways that do not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC members.
I”m sure there will be a solution, hopefully without absorbing too much
more time and effort of all of us</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Holly</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg <<A
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target=_blank>alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de facto,
have any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than those
rights of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to the
ALT.<BR><BR>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time to time,
delegate actions of the ALAC to the ALT. It happens relatively rarely,
but does on occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight timing
requirements.<BR><BR>Alan<BR><BR>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani BEN
JEMAA wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>I’m sorry to disagree with
you on everything: </FONT>
<UL><FONT color=#002e7a>
<LI>The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC members only, but
also the RALO leaders, so the ALAC can’t delegate to ALT what is
not its sole duty </FONT>
<LI><FONT color=#002e7a>even if we suppose that the ALT is elected
democratically by the ALAC members, this doesn’t mean that the ALT
can be delegated to replace the ALAC. This is exactly the argument
given by the authoritarian regimes arguing that since they were
elected by their people, they have all the rights to do everything
on their behalf because they know better then the people where is
their interest. When you are democratically elected, it is a mandate
for a limited time to do certain things; it is not an open mandate
to replace who elected you outside the mandate you are elected
for.
</FONT></LI></UL><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone: <A
href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114" target=_blank
value="+21698330114">+216 98 330 114</A><BR>
+216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 15:46, Kan Kaili
<<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit :<BR><BR><FONT
size=2>Hi, Tijani,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The awswer to
your question: Basically, yes. That is, when ALAC faces a tie
during the selection of its Board Director, or other positions
generally in principle, the ALT will be delegated to make the
selection on behalf of ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The
justification of this includes:<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>-
When there is a tie, all the tied candidates are equal
representations of ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- The ALT
is democratically elected with full representation of all regions,
cultures and, presumably, various
interests.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- ALT members are
elected due to their experience and contribution to ICANN's mission,
who should also be most capable to make the best selection among
candidates.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- As the ALT will be
making the selection on behalf of all of ALAC, the process should be
open to all ALAC voting members (not beyond). Thus, the
selection made by each ALT member in this process will affect the
support he/she receives during later elections of the ALT.
This will in turn put a "lid" on any possible blackbox deals which
will be the safeguard for our democratic
principle.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- We at ALAC are merely
representatives of ALSes, or of the end-users in the world (maybe to
a lesser extent regarding NomCom selectees like me). Thus, as
they elected and delegated us to make selections on their behalf, it
would also make sense to extend the same principle to the ALT in the
case we cannot effectively make a
selection.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Furthermore, as Alan
pointed out, it is possible, even likely, that tied-candidates be
ALT members themselves, and even the chairperson him/herself.
So be it. I don't think anywhere in the world's elections
prohibit a person to vote for him/herself. Based on the above
same arguments, he/she has received enough support for the position
during the "general" election process, and is thus well
deserved. Thus, he/she moving to the Board will vacate the ALT
position, maybe even the chairperson position, for new blood.
Also, as he/she gets the position as desired, I am sure that he/she
will work even harder to contribute to ICANN's
mission.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Of course, before ALT
selects on behalf of the whole ALAC, how many rounds of tie-breaking
need to take place is up to debate. As I am not familiar to
the current process, I am sure that, with so much wisdom in ALAC, a
process to bridge the gap between the current process and the future
one could be designed. However, again as Arrow's Nobel-prized
Theorem has proven, especially as the Board Member selection process
has been a "long and painful" one so far, a certain degree of
"dictatorship" ("democracy-based dictatorship" to be exact) has to
be there as a last resort.<BR> <BR>Thank you, and thank you
all.<BR> <BR>Best
regards,<BR>Kaili<BR> <BR> <BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">----- Original Message -----
<BR><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn"
target=_blank>Tijani BEN JEMAA</A><BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target=_blank>Kan
Kaili</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> <A href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Seun Ojedeji</A> ; <A
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target=_blank>Alan
Greenberg</A> ; <A href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC Working List</A><BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June
16, 2016 8:58 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives<BR><BR><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>Do you propose that in
the selection of the Board Director selected by At-Large, when we
face a tie, we delegate the ALT to decide which one should be
dropped????<BR></FONT><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone: +216 98 330
114<BR> +216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 12:00, Kan Kaili
<<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit :<BR><BR><FONT
size=2>Hi,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>I have followed this
discussion with interest but also confussion. It seems to
me that different options have different pros, cons and possible
outcomes.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>As a matter of fact,
this reminds me of Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, basically
saying that democracy can only go so far, and may not
necessarily lead to a fair outcome acceptable by
everybody. In that case, some degree of "dictatorship" is
warranted. This is why republics are established, as well
as why the presidential race between Bush and Gore was finally
decided by the Supreme Court.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Thus, in our case, when a tie has appeared, I suggest to
delegate ALT to decide who will represent ALAC at the
position. After all, the ALT is elected by all of us thru
a fully democratic process. Good enough. In the case
that even the ALT cannot decide, the chairperson of ALAC will
make the final decision.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>I
believe this process is highly executable, and is also fully
democratic to its limit.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Being
the most junior member of ALAC, just expressing some of my
thoughts for your
consideration.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>
<DIV class=gmail_signature data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV
dir=ltr>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><FONT
color=#888888>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; FONT-FAMILY: garamond,serif"><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<BR
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Federal
University Oye-Ekiti<BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">web: </SPAN><A
href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng"
target=_blank>http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</A><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile:
<A value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><BR></I><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">alt email:<A href="http://goog_1872880453"
target=_blank> </A><A href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng"
target=_blank>seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</A></SPAN></I><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">Bringing
another down does not take you up - think about your
action!<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>