<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Seun<div><br></div><div>I really worry about your statement that randomness is preferable to the ALT’s role - an unnecessary human perspective.</div><div><br></div><div>ALT members are there because their regions have put them there. But when it comes to the crunch, they are not to be trusted! Really!</div><div><br></div><div>I agree, that we are now talking about a very unlikely scenario which, hopefully, will not happen. That said, I’d really prefer to think that human consideration is preferable. (and the normal practice in all Boards is that when a Board member is too closely tied to a particular outcome, they excuse themselves from participating in making the relevant decision(s).</div><div><br></div><div>Holly</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 17 Jun 2016, at 6:06 pm, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><p dir="ltr">Hello Kaili,</p><p dir="ltr">I think we need to be clear here, going the random option is last resort and we all may actually never experience it. Three steps would have happened before randomly doing stuff:</p><p dir="ltr">1. There would have been a contested position<br>
2. Votes would have been casted and resulted to a tie<br>
3. Another set of votes would have been casted among the contestants in 2 above.</p><p dir="ltr">Once the above still result to a tie, I think it is just fair to go to randomisation that is verifiable. At that point there would be no human subjectivity as it is assumed that both tied contestants are qualified to be elected. Seeding that role to ALT brings in unnecessary human perspective/interference which won't be necessary at that point. </p><p dir="ltr">Secondly, the ALT members are part of the electorates and there may even be instances where one of them is a contestant so delegating a section of the electorate the responsibility to determine the elected would not be a fair election process.</p><p dir="ltr">Regards<br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 17 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m., "Kan Kaili" <<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">Hi, Leon,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">I agree with you that a random selection process is
the best in accordance to "fairness".</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">However, including this random factor into the
selection process implies that we at ALAC rather trust randomness instead
of our own elected ALT. This also implies that we regard personal fairness
to be more important than the effectiveness of selecting our Board Member.
Are those what we really want?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">As I understand, the Board Member is to represent
ALAC, all the RALOs and ALSs, and in turn all the end-users to the
Board. This is a serious position with enormous responsibility. I am
not sure about what the end-users will think, but at least I will not
feel comfortable having a randomly selected person to represent me.
Furthermore, I am not sure if such a selectee would feel confident and be
effective at that position either.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">Sorry to disagree with you on some
points.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体">Kaili</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="宋体"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="leonfelipe@sanchez.mx" href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx" target="_blank">León Felipe
Sánchez Ambía</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>To:</b> <a title="h.raiche@internode.on.net" href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net" target="_blank">Holly Raiche</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC Working List</a> ; <a title="alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">Alan
Greenberg</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2016 12:03 PM</div>
<div style="FONT:9pt 宋体"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</div>
<div><br></div>Hello all,
<div><br></div>
<div>My sense is that option 2 is the best in fairness. While I understand the
complexities of the rest of the options, I believe letting those candidates
tied for last place compete amongst them is the most transparent way to
address the challenge. In case they are tied again, then it would be justified
to run the verifiable random disqualification process.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>León</div></div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>El 16/06/2016, a las 5:18 p.m., Holly Raiche <<a href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net" target="_blank">h.raiche@internode.on.net</a>>
escribió:</div><br>
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">I
have to agree with Alan (and Kaili) here.
<div><br></div>
<div>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over anything.
However, they may be situations where, for timing reasons, the ALT may
be an appropriate mechanism to reach a decision.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with situations that
have been described, and they must be as open and democratic and fair as
possible. But we must also reserve the means of solving disputes in
ways that do not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC members. I”m
sure there will be a solution, hopefully without absorbing too much more
time and effort of all of us</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Holly</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg <<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>>
wrote:</div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de facto, have
any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than those rights
of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to the
ALT.<br><br>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time to time,
delegate actions of the ALAC to the ALT. It happens relatively rarely, but
does on occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight timing
requirements.<br><br>Alan<br><br>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM, Tijani BEN JEMAA
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#002e7a">Dear
Kaili,</font><br><font color="#002e7a"><br>I’m sorry to disagree with
you on everything: </font>
<ul><font color="#002e7a">
<li>The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC members only, but
also the RALO leaders, so the ALAC can’t delegate to ALT what is not
its sole duty </li></font>
<li><font color="#002e7a">even if we suppose that the ALT is elected
democratically by the ALAC members, this doesn’t mean that the ALT
can be delegated to replace the ALAC. This is exactly the argument
given by the authoritarian regimes arguing that since they were
elected by their people, they have all the rights to do everything on
their behalf because they know better then the people where is their
interest. When you are democratically elected, it is a mandate for a
limited time to do certain things; it is not an open mandate to
replace who elected you outside the mandate you are elected for.
</font></li></ul><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><b>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<br></b>Executive Director<br>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<b>FMAI</b>)<br>Phone: <a href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114" value="+21698330114" target="_blank">+216 98 330 114</a><br>
+216 52 385
114<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã
15:46, Kan Kaili <<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> a écrit
:<br><br><font size="2">Hi, Tijani,<br></font> <br><font size="2">The
awswer to your question: Basically, yes. That is, when ALAC
faces a tie during the selection of its Board Director, or other
positions generally in principle, the ALT will be delegated to make
the selection on behalf of ALAC.<br></font> <br><font size="2">The
justification of this includes:<br></font> <br><font size="2">-
When there is a tie, all the tied candidates are equal representations
of ALAC.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- The ALT is democratically
elected with full representation of all regions, cultures and,
presumably, various interests.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- ALT
members are elected due to their experience and contribution to
ICANN's mission, who should also be most capable to make the best
selection among candidates.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- As the
ALT will be making the selection on behalf of all of ALAC, the process
should be open to all ALAC voting members (not beyond). Thus,
the selection made by each ALT member in this process will affect the
support he/she receives during later elections of the ALT. This
will in turn put a "lid" on any possible blackbox deals which will be
the safeguard for our democratic principle.<br></font> <br><font size="2">- We at ALAC are merely representatives of ALSes, or of the
end-users in the world (maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom
selectees like me). Thus, as they elected and delegated us to
make selections on their behalf, it would also make sense to extend
the same principle to the ALT in the case we cannot effectively make a
selection.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Furthermore, as Alan
pointed out, it is possible, even likely, that tied-candidates be ALT
members themselves, and even the chairperson him/herself. So be
it. I don't think anywhere in the world's elections prohibit a
person to vote for him/herself. Based on the above same
arguments, he/she has received enough support for the position during
the "general" election process, and is thus well deserved. Thus,
he/she moving to the Board will vacate the ALT position, maybe even
the chairperson position, for new blood. Also, as he/she gets
the position as desired, I am sure that he/she will work even harder
to contribute to ICANN's mission.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Of
course, before ALT selects on behalf of the whole ALAC, how many
rounds of tie-breaking need to take place is up to debate. As I
am not familiar to the current process, I am sure that, with so much
wisdom in ALAC, a process to bridge the gap between the current
process and the future one could be designed. However, again as
Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has proven, especially as the Board
Member selection process has been a "long and painful" one so far, a
certain degree of "dictatorship" ("democracy-based dictatorship" to be
exact) has to be there as a last resort.<br> <br>Thank you, and
thank you all.<br> <br>Best
regards,<br>Kaili<br> <br> <br></font>
<blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message
----- <br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn" target="_blank">Tijani BEN
JEMAA</a><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">Kan
Kaili</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">Seun
Ojedeji</a> ; <a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">Alan
Greenberg</a> ; <a href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC
Working List</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58
PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director voting
alternatives<br><br><font color="#002e7a">Dear Kaili,</font><br><font color="#002e7a"><br>Do you propose that in the selection of the Board
Director selected by At-Large, when we face a tie, we delegate the
ALT to decide which one should be
dropped????<br></font><br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><b>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<br></b>Executive Director<br>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<b>FMAI</b>)<br>Phone: +216 98 330
114<br> +216 52 385
114<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã
12:00, Kan Kaili <<a href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target="_blank">kankaili@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br><br><font size="2">Hi,<br></font> <br><font size="2">I have followed this discussion with interest but also
confussion. It seems to me that different options have
different pros, cons and possible
outcomes.<br></font> <br><font size="2">As a matter of fact,
this reminds me of Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, basically saying
that democracy can only go so far, and may not necessarily lead to
a fair outcome acceptable by everybody. In that case, some
degree of "dictatorship" is warranted. This is why republics
are established, as well as why the presidential race between Bush
and Gore was finally decided by the Supreme
Court.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Thus, in our case, when a
tie has appeared, I suggest to delegate ALT to decide who will
represent ALAC at the position. After all, the ALT is
elected by all of us thru a fully democratic process. Good
enough. In the case that even the ALT cannot decide, the
chairperson of ALAC will make the final
decision.<br></font> <br><font size="2">I believe this process
is highly executable, and is also fully democratic to its
limit.<br></font> <br><font size="2">Being the most junior
member of ALAC, just expressing some of my thoughts for your
consideration.</font></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>ALAC
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br><a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</a><br><br>At-Large
Online: <a href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/" target="_blank">http://www.atlarge.icann.org</a><br>ALAC Working Wiki:
<a href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</a></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>ALAC
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br><a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</a><br><br>At-Large
Online: <a href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/" target="_blank">http://www.atlarge.icann.org</a><br>ALAC Working Wiki:
<a href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div><div>
<br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>ALAC mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target="_blank">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br><a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</a><br><br>At-Large
Online: <a href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/" target="_blank">http://www.atlarge.icann.org</a><br>ALAC Working Wiki:
<a href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></blockquote></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
ALAC mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</a><br>
<br>
At-Large Online: <a href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.atlarge.icann.org</a><br>
ALAC Working Wiki: <a href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</a><br></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>