<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"
bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Holly,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I agree with all your points, especially that
human consideration should be prefered over randomness.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>However, regarding Board Members excuse themselves
when voting, I suppose those issues are only when related to personal interests,
especially finacial interests etc., but not on policy issues and
elections. For example, a Board Member would be fully eligible to vote
"yes" for a policy he/she proposed and advocated for, as well as voting for
him/herself during elections because it is his/her true belief that him/herself
is the best person to do the job. </FONT><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I also saw
last year that Alan was not shy to cite our procedures to serve as ALAC's chair
for another term, which also showed to me similar principles. </FONT><FONT
size=2 face=宋体>Am I right or wrong on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Thank you again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=h.raiche@internode.on.net
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net">Holly Raiche</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A title=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">Seun Ojedeji</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=kankaili@gmail.com
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">Kaili Kan</A> ; <A
title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca">Alan
Greenberg</A> ; <A title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC Working List</A> ; <A
title=leonfelipe@sanchez.mx href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx">Len Felipe
Snchez Amba</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 6:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP
Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Seun
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I really worry about your statement that randomness is preferable to the
ALT’s role - an unnecessary human perspective.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>ALT members are there because their regions have put them there.
But when it comes to the crunch, they are not to be trusted!
Really!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I agree, that we are now talking about a very unlikely scenario which,
hopefully, will not happen. That said, I’d really prefer to think that
human consideration is preferable. (and the normal practice in all
Boards is that when a Board member is too closely tied to a particular
outcome, they excuse themselves from participating in making the relevant
decision(s).</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Holly</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 17 Jun 2016, at 6:06 pm, Seun Ojedeji <<A
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<P dir=ltr>Hello Kaili,</P>
<P dir=ltr>I think we need to be clear here, going the random option is last
resort and we all may actually never experience it. Three steps would have
happened before randomly doing stuff:</P>
<P dir=ltr>1. There would have been a contested position<BR>2. Votes would
have been casted and resulted to a tie<BR>3. Another set of votes would have
been casted among the contestants in 2 above.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Once the above still result to a tie, I think it is just fair to
go to randomisation that is verifiable. At that point there would be no
human subjectivity as it is assumed that both tied contestants are qualified
to be elected. Seeding that role to ALT brings in unnecessary human
perspective/interference which won't be necessary at that point. </P>
<P dir=ltr>Secondly, the ALT members are part of the electorates and there
may even be instances where one of them is a contestant so delegating a
section of the electorate the responsibility to determine the elected would
not be a fair election process.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Regards<BR>Sent from my LG G4<BR>Kindly excuse brevity and
typos</P>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 17 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m., "Kan Kaili" <<A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com">kankaili@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR
type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Hi, Leon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>I agree with you that a random selection
process is the best in accordance to "fairness".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>However, including this random factor into
the selection process implies that we at ALAC rather trust
randomness instead of our own elected ALT. This also implies
that we regard personal fairness to be more important than the
effectiveness of selecting our Board Member. Are those what we
really want?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>As I understand, the Board Member is to
represent ALAC, all the RALOs and ALSs, and in turn all the
end-users to the Board. This is a serious position with
enormous responsibility. I am not sure about what the
end-users will think, but at least I will not feel comfortable having a
randomly selected person to represent me. Furthermore, I am not sure
if such a selectee would feel confident and be effective at that position
either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Sorry to disagree with you on some
points.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体>Kaili</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=宋体></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=leonfelipe@sanchez.mx href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx"
target=_blank>León Felipe Sánchez Amba</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>To:</B> <A
title=h.raiche@internode.on.net href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target=_blank>Holly Raiche</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target=_blank>ALAC Working
List</A> ; <A title=alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target=_blank>Alan Greenberg</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 17, 2016 12:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 9pt 宋体"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of
RoP Director voting alternatives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hello all,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>My sense is that option 2 is the best in fairness. While I
understand the complexities of the rest of the options, I believe
letting those candidates tied for last place compete amongst them is the
most transparent way to address the challenge. In case they are tied
again, then it would be justified to run the verifiable random
disqualification process.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>León</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>El 16/06/2016, a las 5:18 p.m., Holly Raiche <<A
href="mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net"
target=_blank>h.raiche@internode.on.net</A>> escribió:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">I have to agree with Alan (and
Kaili) here.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don’t think Kaili was suggesting that the ALT take over
anything. However, they may be situations where, for timing
reasons, the ALT may be an appropriate mechanism to reach a
decision.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In the longer term, yes, we do need rules to deal with situations
that have been described, and they must be as open and democratic and
fair as possible. But we must also reserve the means of solving
disputes in ways that do not absorb too much time and energy of ALAC
members. I”m sure there will be a solution, hopefully without
absorbing too much more time and effort of all of us</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Holly</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 17 Jun 2016, at 1:48 am, Alan Greenberg <<A
href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target=_blank>alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>To be clear, Tijani is correct that the ALT does not, de facto,
have any rights to take decisions on behalf of the ALAC other than
those rights of the Chair which the Chair might actively delegate to
the ALT.<BR><BR>However, the ALAC may, if it chooses, from time to
time, delegate actions of the ALAC to the ALT. It happens relatively
rarely, but does on occasion occur, usually for reasons of tight
timing requirements.<BR><BR>Alan<BR><BR>At 16/06/2016 11:33 AM,
Tijani BEN JEMAA wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>I’m sorry to
disagree with you on everything: </FONT>
<UL><FONT color=#002e7a>
<LI>The electorate is not constituted by the ALAC members only,
but also the RALO leaders, so the ALAC can’t delegate to
ALT what is not its sole duty </FONT>
<LI><FONT color=#002e7a>even if we suppose that the ALT is
elected democratically by the ALAC members, this doesn’t
mean that the ALT can be delegated to replace the ALAC. This is
exactly the argument given by the authoritarian regimes arguing
that since they were elected by their people, they have all the
rights to do everything on their behalf because they know better
then the people where is their interest. When you are
democratically elected, it is a mandate for a limited time to do
certain things; it is not an open mandate to replace who elected
you outside the mandate you are elected for.
</FONT></LI></UL><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean Federation of
Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone: <A
href="tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114" target=_blank
value="+21698330114">+216 98 330 114</A><BR>
+216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 15:46, Kan
Kaili <<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit
:<BR><BR><FONT size=2>Hi, Tijani,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>The awswer to your question: Basically, yes. That
is, when ALAC faces a tie during the selection of its Board
Director, or other positions generally in principle, the ALT
will be delegated to make the selection on behalf of
ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The justification of this
includes:<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- When there is a
tie, all the tied candidates are equal representations of
ALAC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- The ALT is
democratically elected with full representation of all regions,
cultures and, presumably, various
interests.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- ALT members are
elected due to their experience and contribution to ICANN's
mission, who should also be most capable to make the best
selection among candidates.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>-
As the ALT will be making the selection on behalf of all of
ALAC, the process should be open to all ALAC voting members (not
beyond). Thus, the selection made by each ALT member in
this process will affect the support he/she receives during
later elections of the ALT. This will in turn put a "lid"
on any possible blackbox deals which will be the safeguard for
our democratic principle.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>- We
at ALAC are merely representatives of ALSes, or of the end-users
in the world (maybe to a lesser extent regarding NomCom
selectees like me). Thus, as they elected and delegated us
to make selections on their behalf, it would also make sense to
extend the same principle to the ALT in the case we cannot
effectively make a selection.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Furthermore, as Alan pointed out, it is possible, even
likely, that tied-candidates be ALT members themselves, and even
the chairperson him/herself. So be it. I don't think
anywhere in the world's elections prohibit a person to vote for
him/herself. Based on the above same arguments, he/she has
received enough support for the position during the "general"
election process, and is thus well deserved. Thus, he/she
moving to the Board will vacate the ALT position, maybe even the
chairperson position, for new blood. Also, as he/she gets
the position as desired, I am sure that he/she will work even
harder to contribute to ICANN's
mission.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Of course, before ALT
selects on behalf of the whole ALAC, how many rounds of
tie-breaking need to take place is up to debate. As I am
not familiar to the current process, I am sure that, with so
much wisdom in ALAC, a process to bridge the gap between the
current process and the future one could be designed.
However, again as Arrow's Nobel-prized Theorem has proven,
especially as the Board Member selection process has been a
"long and painful" one so far, a certain degree of
"dictatorship" ("democracy-based dictatorship" to be exact) has
to be there as a last resort.<BR> <BR>Thank you, and thank
you all.<BR> <BR>Best
regards,<BR>Kaili<BR> <BR> <BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">----- Original Message -----
<BR><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn"
target=_blank>Tijani BEN JEMAA</A><BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com" target=_blank>Kan
Kaili</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target=_blank>Seun
Ojedeji</A> ; <A href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca"
target=_blank>Alan Greenberg</A> ; <A
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org" target=_blank>ALAC
Working List</A><BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58
PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ALAC] Explanation of RoP Director
voting alternatives<BR><BR><FONT color=#002e7a>Dear
Kaili,</FONT><BR><FONT color=#002e7a><BR>Do you propose that
in the selection of the Board Director selected by At-Large,
when we face a tie, we delegate the ALT to decide which one
should be
dropped????<BR></FONT><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><B>Tijani
BEN JEMAA<BR></B>Executive Director<BR>Mediterranean
Federation of Internet Associations (<B>FMAI</B>)<BR>Phone:
+216 98 330 114<BR>
+216 52 385
114<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Le 16 juin 2016 Ã 12:00, Kan
Kaili <<A href="mailto:kankaili@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kankaili@gmail.com</A>> a écrit
:<BR><BR><FONT size=2>Hi,<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>I
have followed this discussion with interest but also
confussion. It seems to me that different options have
different pros, cons and possible
outcomes.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>As a matter of
fact, this reminds me of Arrow's Impossibility Theorem,
basically saying that democracy can only go so far, and may
not necessarily lead to a fair outcome acceptable by
everybody. In that case, some degree of "dictatorship"
is warranted. This is why republics are established,
as well as why the presidential race between Bush and Gore
was finally decided by the Supreme
Court.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Thus, in our case,
when a tie has appeared, I suggest to delegate ALT to decide
who will represent ALAC at the position. After all,
the ALT is elected by all of us thru a fully democratic
process. Good enough. In the case that even the
ALT cannot decide, the chairperson of ALAC will make the
final decision.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>I believe
this process is highly executable, and is also fully
democratic to its limit.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Being the most junior member of ALAC, just expressing
some of my thoughts for your
consideration.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki:
<A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki:
<A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<HR>
<DIV><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target=_blank>ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A>
<DIV><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ALAC
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org">ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org</A><BR><A
href="https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac</A><BR><BR>At-Large
Online: <A href="http://www.atlarge.icann.org/" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>http://www.atlarge.icann.org</A><BR>ALAC Working Wiki: <A
href="https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALAC)</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>