[ALAC] [At-Large] Reference: ICC Ruling on Objections filed by the ALAC

Fatima Cambronero fatimacambronero at gmail.com
Thu Jan 23 18:21:40 UTC 2014


2014/1/23 Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels at gmail.com>

> Again, I see and hear you. Can I make use of an acronym you used in another
> space, only this time with a different spin perhaps?  RTMFM.
>

Dear Carlton,

In the last LACRALO teleconference you talked about engagement and
participation and about the people who speak English and who not.
This answer to Alejandro is exactly the contrary to your speech in that
teleconference.
Please if you want more people who are committed and involved, and
participating in At-Large activities and interests, take care your
expressions and respect the cultural diversity.
Also if you are one of the few people who know more about gTLD and its
processes and objections, please teach us humility.
I always appreciate your teaching.


Best Regards,
Fatima

P.S. I don't have intention to discuss with you about that. The main topic
of this thread is more important than answer me.



> -Carlton
>
>
> ==============================
> Carlton A Samuels
> Mobile: 876-818-1799
> *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
> =============================
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <
> apisan at unam.mx> wrote:
>
> > Carlton,
> >
> > I object the ad-hominem, chest-pounding, bullying and outright
> distortions
> > and lies in your posting. Let it rest for the record since even you have
> > somewhat bowed to the more rational approach which Evan picked up, and
> > since you appear to have backtracked from or clarified what seemed a
> > serious accusation against an absent third party.
> >
> > Alejandro Pisanty
> >
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> > Facultad de Química UNAM
> > Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> >
> >
> >
> > +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> >
> > +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
> > Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> > LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> > Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> > http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> > ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> > .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > Desde: at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [
> > at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Carlton Samuels [
> > carlton.samuels at gmail.com]
> > Enviado el: jueves, 23 de enero de 2014 08:31
> > Hasta: At-Large Worldwide
> > CC: At-Large Worldwide
> > Asunto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] Reference: ICC Ruling on Objections filed
> by
> > the ALAC
> >
> > Alejandro:
> > Here we go again. You do find it easy to judge....and disapprove.
> >
> > Again, you hopelessly misread, probably because you came in  late to an
> > ongoing conversation.  Or maybe the nuances of meaning offered by my
> native
> > English Language is a challenge.  [Talking of 'metaphorical flourish',
> its
> > like me and Spanish. I know two words in a flurry of ten and think I
> > understand it.]  Yes, the tone I used was intentional; mocking. I cannot
> > and will not bear your burdens.
> >
> > NO my friend. You libel Sala. An explanation by Sala of the meaning of a
> > term I used cannot be a basis for your wily accusation of her.  Sala is
> > absolved.
> >
> > The problems I saw of the objection framework were both STRUCTURAL and
> > PHILOSOPHICAL. And since they were obvious from the beginning, I am of
> the
> > mind they were left in place for cause.
> >
> > I feel vindicated because the evaluator laid them bare.
> >
> > Pfftt. When I use a word it means what is intended. First of all,
> plainly,
> > I APPROVE of the evaluator's judgement. If only because it coincides with
> > my initial one!  The use of the descriptive 'cogent' was for the ordinary
> > meaning and not cynical.
> >
> > I quoted his writings extensively because my own reading and
> interpretation
> > of the AGB and after extensive conversations and debates with Committee
> > chair Dev Anand Teelucksingh - who, other than Alan Greenberg is possibly
> > the most thoughtful and best researcher I know in At-Large - I was
> > convinced that:
> >
> > 1. There were serious disconnects in the objection framework offered in
> the
> > AGB
> > 2. The barrier to entry in the process in form of a fee was intended as a
> > 'chilling effect'; plainly, they were unwanted
> > 3. I doubted the cover of the ALAC as sponsored community objector gave
> > equal protection
> > 4. The process instituted to determine 'community standing' was not fit
> and
> > MAY NOT be.
> > 4. The PICs were an afterthought, a Wile E. Coyote scheme and in context
> of
> > an entity who disavows a regulatory function, hardly enforceable on an
> > business
> >
> > I hold those views.  Those who have been paying attention know they are
> > mine and honestly developed.   Sorry if you disapprove.
> >
> > Bless your heart.
> > -Carlton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Carlton A Samuels
> > Mobile: 876-818-1799
> > *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
> > =============================
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:17 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <
> > apisan at unam.mx> wrote:
> >
> > > Sala, Carlton,
> > >
> > > so, you are accusing the reviewer of cheating? That's pretty strong.
> > >
> > > Re actions, I have a different one: "live and learn." Or to move away
> > from
> > > the metaphorical flourish, analyze and extract lessons learned.
> > >
> > > First, find out in depth what went wrong with this objection and
> whether
> > > ALAC can do better. Spread the learning to the RALOs.
> > >
> > > Second, if a pattern emerges that shows deeper problems with the
> > objection
> > > process and with the gTLD program, put it in writing and work to modify
> > > either or both.
> > >
> > > And, let's try to show the cultural sensitivity we all demand by
> limiting
> > > the references to specific bodies of religious text.
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > >
> > > Alejandro Pisanty
> > >
> > >
> > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > >      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> > > Facultad de Química UNAM
> > > Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> > >
> > > +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
> > > Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> > > LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> > > Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> > > Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> > > ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> > > .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > Desde: at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [
> > > at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Carlton
> Samuels [
> > > carlton.samuels at gmail.com]
> > > Enviado el: miércoles, 22 de enero de 2014 22:50
> > > Hasta: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
> > > CC: At-Large Worldwide; At-Large Worldwide
> > > Asunto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] Reference: ICC Ruling on Objections filed
> > by
> > > the ALAC
> > >
> > > Thank you, dear Sala.  Muah.
> > >
> > > To Alejandro's first question, answer is be quiet and slink away.
>  Paras
> > 30
> > > & 31 here should inform that action:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://newgtlds.icann.org/sites/default/files/drsp/17jan14/determination-1-1-1489-82287-en.pdf
> > >
> > > ...and the meaning of the reference so ably revealed by Sala.
> > >
> > > Period the end.
> > > -Carlton
> > >
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > Carlton A Samuels
> > > Mobile: 876-818-1799
> > > *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
> > > =============================
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
> > > salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I will let Carlton explain the first question that Alejandro wrote.
> > > >
> > > > With respect to the use of Jacob and Esau, it is an expression used
> > when
> > > > describing deception. The story goes that Jacob and Esau were
> brothers
> > > and
> > > > sons of Isaac. In ancient times and in that particular culture,
> before
> > a
> > > > father would die he would bestow his blessings to the firstborn as
> that
> > > was
> > > > his birthright. Whilst Jacob and Esau were twins, Esau was the older
> of
> > > the
> > > > two and so it was his birthright to succeed, However as Isaac reached
> > old
> > > > age, his sight failed him so he could not see properly. In a
> successful
> > > > attempt by Jacob to get the blessings of the firstborn after
> striking a
> > > > deal with his brother over a bowl of soup, Jacob killed an animal and
> > put
> > > > the skin around his hands so that he could appear hairy as his
> brother
> > > Esau
> > > > was hairy and in so doing deceived his father into blessing him. So
> the
> > > > expression to hear the voice of Jacob but it is the hand of Esau he
> > feels
> > > > is used to refer to the use of "deception".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <
> > > > apisan at unam.mx> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Carlton,
> > > > >
> > > > > what is the action that you conclude should follow?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you explain the Jacob/Esau reference please?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yours,
> > > > >
> > > > > Alejandro Pisanty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > > > >      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> > > > > Facultad de Química UNAM
> > > > > Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> > > > >
> > > > > +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
> > > > > Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> > > > > LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> > > > > Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> > > > > Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> > > > > ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> > > > > .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > Desde: at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [
> > > > > at-large-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Carlton
> > > Samuels [
> > > > > carlton.samuels at gmail.com]
> > > > > Enviado el: miércoles, 22 de enero de 2014 21:04
> > > > > Hasta: At-Large Worldwide; At-Large Worldwide
> > > > > Asunto: [At-Large] Reference: ICC Ruling on Objections filed by the
> > > ALAC
> > > > >
> > > > > Colleagues may recall that this writer was part of the original
> > > At-Large
> > > > > panel constituted to evaluate and determine whether the ALAC would
> > > > exercise
> > > > > standing and file community objections to a gTLD application.
> > > > >
> > > > > You will also recall that after some time engaging and several
> > > > evaluations,
> > > > > I withdrew from the process, principally because I was challenged
> to
> > > > > reconcile my disquiet regarding the bases used to identify the
> > offended
> > > > > community in context and the expandable and sometimes indeterminate
> > > > > attributes available for defining a community with standing to
> raise
> > an
> > > > > objection.
> > > > >
> > > > > So now, the evaluator hired by the ICC to evaluate the objections
> > filed
> > > > has
> > > > > issued his ruling.  See it here:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://newgtlds.icann.org/sites/default/files/drsp/17jan14/determination-1-1-1684-6394-en.pdf
> > > > > .
> > > > > Here's the key understanding, as he sees it, of what obtains..
> > > > >
> > > > > "*The formal objection process was created to allow a f**ull and
> fair
> > > > > consideration of objections based on certain l**imited grounds
> > outside
> > > > > ICANN’s evaluation of applications on t**heir merits*"  - Para 54,
> > Page
> > > > 29
> > > > >
> > > > > He, too, has his troubles settling on a meaning of the term
> > 'community'
> > > > in
> > > > > context. His take...
> > > > >
> > > > > "*......**The word “community” refers not to a place, but to an
> > > > > abstraction: the convergence of a sense of involvement with common
> > > > > interests....Communities of persons united by their interests in
> how
> > > they
> > > > > earn their living may be especially strong, whether they form
> > permanent
> > > > > organisations (like professional associations) or not (like the
> > entire
> > > > > **population
> > > > > segment of retirees).*"  Para 49, Page 27 inter alia
> > > > >
> > > > > He continues, bemoaning his inability to cleanly define a community
> > > with
> > > > > standing.....and in the process, pimp slaps the prevailing or
> > > predominant
> > > > > At-Large tenet of community....
> > > > >
> > > > > "*.....Communities do not necessarily create institutions. They do
> > not
> > > > > necessarily function as a polity, in the sense of identifying
> > officials
> > > > > formally authorized to act in **their name, represent their
> > interests,
> > > or
> > > > > formulate their policies. They may exist without structures of
> > > > > self-governance, such as membership committees which admit **or
> > exclude
> > > > > individuals by reference to more or less well-articulated standards
> > > > > of qualification or conduct**........It follows that communities
> may
> > > > > include individuals who are more or less **concerned with the
> welfare
> > > of
> > > > > the group as a whole; it may contain cynics as well as *
> > > > > *idealists, speculators as well as altruists. Naturally it may
> > include
> > > > > subgroups or even **individuals whose opinions and preferences are
> > > > sharply
> > > > > at odds with those of the **majority of the community. Unless the
> > > > community
> > > > > has in some constitutional sense **defined itself as excluding
> > > > undesirable
> > > > > individuals, or at least limited their capacity to **make claims to
> > > speak
> > > > > as members of the group, someone looking at a community **from the
> > > > outside,
> > > > > and armed only with this broad understanding of what a
> **“community”
> > > may
> > > > > be, has no rules-based criteria for evaluating who does or does not
> > > > > **belong
> > > > > to the community. *" Paras 50 & 51, Page 26-27, inter alia
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's where he ends up....
> > > > >
> > > > > "*....The determination I am now charged with effecting deals.... –
> > > with
> > > > > “global Internet communities”. That expression has not, however,
> been
> > > > given
> > > > > further specific definition. One must therefore proceed on the
> basis
> > of
> > > > (i)
> > > > > discerning what the relevant rules do not say about “communities”
> and
> > > > (ii)
> > > > > being attentive to implied constraints derived from principles
> > > developed
> > > > by
> > > > > ICANN.*" Para 52, Page 28, inter alia
> > > > >
> > > > > He elides a lot of stuff from the foregoing to the six (6)
> principles
> > > > upon
> > > > > which the new GTLD program is predicated in Para 55 then delivered
> > this
> > > > > [considered] opinion....
> > > > >
> > > > > "*To the extent that abstract or aspirational principles are
> defined,
> > > > they
> > > > > are those of a free market (“competition”, “consumer choice”,
> > > > > “differentiation” and “diversity”) and freedom of expression,
> rather
> > > than
> > > > > regulatory constraints arising from a protective (or authoritarian)
> > > > desire
> > > > > to filter “wrong” or “unsound” views, or otherwise restrict access
> > s**o
> > > > as
> > > > > to reserve it to those who are vetted by some type of official
> > > bodies...I
> > > > > see no reflection here of* *ALAC’s undisguised bias **against
> > > “commercial
> > > > > applicants” who “cannot be trusted to self-police the .health
> domain
> > > > space
> > > > > and are “more than likely” to place “commercial interests before
> > > > > public **welfare
> > > > > interests”*.......*The Objector’s animadversions against the
> > Applicant
> > > > miss
> > > > > the target;* *profit-seekers **may apply; the public interest is
> > > > evidently
> > > > > intended to be protected by protocols imposed by ICANN in a manner
> > akin
> > > > to
> > > > > that of regulators whose supervision constrains the conduct of
> > > for-profit
> > > > > providers of public services generally...*" Paras 56 & 57, Page 31
> > > inter
> > > > > alia
> > > > >
> > > > > Reasonable men and women may well agree to disagree, agreeably or
> > not.
> > > I
> > > > > willingly acknowledge the arguments posited by this evaluator are
> > > indeed
> > > > > cogent. All in all, this was a bravura performance, worthy of
> > > > > acknowledgement. For in one fell swoop, this gentleman tells the
> ALAC
> > > to
> > > > > piss off - politely, in an 'Englishy' kind of way -, gives a
> > > left-handed
> > > > > thumbs up to the regulatory role of ICANN, fingers the PICs as I
> have
> > > > > always intimated they were .......and comes up roses.
> > > > >
> > > > > He hears the voice of Jacob. But smart fella knows it is the hand
> of
> > > Esau
> > > > > he feels.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Carlton
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ==============================
> > > > > Carlton A Samuels
> > > > > Mobile: 876-818-1799
> > > > > *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
> > > > > =============================
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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-- 
*Fatima Cambronero*
Abogada-Argentina

Phone: +54 9351 5282 668
Twitter: @facambronero
Skype: fatima.cambronero

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